What's the Matter with Men?
Inside This Episode
Why do so many men today seem to be in a state of confusion and low grade angst? Why do men so often feel isolated and struggle to express their loneliness? Could it be that our world has grown increasingly hostile toward masculinity? New York Times bestselling author Jefferson Bethke offers a powerful call to men everywhere to step into the light of Jesus' model of masculinity. He joins Maybe God host Eric Huffman to talk about his latest book, Fighting Shadows, co-authored by well-known pastor and author Jon Tyson.
More about Jefferson Bethke: https://jeffandalyssa.com
Learn about Family Teams from our interview with Jeremy Pryor
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Transcript
Eric Huffman: Today on Maybe God, New York Times bestselling author Jefferson Bethke exposes the increasing confusion about and hostility toward the notion of masculinity.
Jefferson Bethke: I do think there's a spirit in parts of culture right now that believes being a man and what comes with that is one of the primary evils of our world that needs to be cleansed. So then when you're hit with that spirit, we kind of only give two choices as a man today. It's okay to repress. Just put everything about yourself and your man-ness that you feel like is in you down, right?
Then the second one is kind of like the Jocko, Andrew Tate, just train harder, get up at 4 a.m., get buff, get all the girls, just release the masculinity in the sinful way. Just be as angry and as sexual and as violent as you should be and want to be because that's true masculinity.
Eric Huffman: In his powerful new book called Fighting Shadows, Jeff offers a third way in which Jesus himself reorients masculinity for us.
Jefferson Bethke: He could have just, you know, not sacrificed at all. He could have just been like, yeah, I'm comfortable. I am good in my glory and in heaven with my authority. So Him coming at all is a huge, huge show of like, Oh, he put others above Himself to the point of even literally like Him taking all the hits. That's really essentially what He did. It's like, I'll take hits for other people so that they might be saved. I do think that is a huge part of what it means to be a man.
Eric Huffman: In this conversation, Jeff and I also share the ways that unhealthy masculinity has played a role in both of our lives, from lust and pornography to shame and loneliness and practical ways that any man can become the man God created him to be. That's all today on Maybe God.
[00:01:46] <music>
Eric Huffman: You're listening to Maybe God. I'm Eric Huffman. I first remember coming across today's guest about 12 years ago when his spoken word video called Why I Hate Religion But Love Jesus went insanely viral. Released in 2012, that video was based on a poem that Jeff wrote about the most striking distinctions between the perfection of Jesus and the imperfections of His followers.
[clip of Jeff's spoken word]
Jefferson Bethke: What if I told you Jesus came to abolish religion? What if I told you voting Republican really wasn't His mission? What if I told you Republican doesn't automatically mean Christian, and just because you call some people blind doesn't automatically give you vision?
Eric Huffman: I wasn't really a Christian back then, although I did pretend to be one. I didn't actually believe that Christianity was true. But when I watched that video, I remember thinking, This guy gets it and I wish more Christians were as brutally honest as him.
Over the years, Jeff has continued to create compelling online content about Jesus that's intended to reach believers and skeptics alike and he's written several best-selling books as well. Today he's tackling what I believe to be some of the most urgent concerns our culture is currently facing, issues surrounding families and masculinity.
His latest book, just released this week, is called Fighting Shadows: Overcoming Seven Lies That Keep Men From Becoming Fully Alive, and it was co-authored by New York City-based pastor and author, John Tyson.
I recognize that a topic like masculinity might feel alienating to a significant portion of our audience who happen to be female. But all the data are pointing to the fact that our boys and men are facing a real crisis that is resulting in higher rates of suicidality and substance abuse, depression and despair, and sexual compulsions and dysfunction.
If this was happening to the same degree among females, I would urge all my male friends and listeners to pay close attention because men and boys are much better off when surrounded by strong, healthy women and girls. And the opposite is also true. Women and girls benefit greatly when the men and boys in their lives are thriving.
So, ladies, I can't encourage you strongly enough to listen closely to what you're about to hear. I spoke with Jeff from his home in Maui, where he lives with his family.
Jefferson Bethke: This is actually my very, very first... You know, when you do a book, they line you up with a bunch of interviews. This is the very, very first one, so hopefully it goes well.
Eric Huffman: Come on. Really?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, yeah.
Eric Huffman: Wow. Well, it must feel good to have it done and to be at this stage of the journey.
Jefferson Bethke: This is the fun part.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Writing is a grind, so congratulations.
Jefferson Bethke: Thank you.
Eric Huffman: It's very exciting. I can't wait for everybody to read it. I know you've got a lot going on right now with your family, and you're getting ready for a big move and all that but thank you for making the time today. Before we really kind of jump into the topic of masculinity, which is near to your heart and the heart of this book that you and John Tyson have written, just want to kind of remind our viewers and listeners about a connection that we have in common, which is Jeremy Pryor and y'all's effort together called Family Teams.
Man, I can't tell you enough how many people in my sphere here in Houston have been affected directly by just implementing some of the principles of family teams into their home life. So I just want to say thank you for y'all's work there. And I know that you and your wife and kids as well have been impacted by that same model. Tell us a little bit about your family and how that model has impacted y'all.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, yeah. So my wife, Alyssa, and I got three kids, Kinsley, Cannon, Lucy. We're in the months of everyone having their birthdays right now, so it's a little tricky. So now we have a nine, an eight, and a five-year-old. But the 9-year-old's going to turn 10 in literally like a week, and then the eight-year-old just turned eight a week ago. So it's a fun girl, boy, girl.
Jeremy and April, are very dear friends of ours, close mentor friends. Probably some of the closest people in our life. Have really shaped us and impacted us deeply. But I met them more than a decade ago, like pre-kids. I think we were just maybe married.
Jeremy was just through a connection, a really, really helpful person when I had a video go viral that kind of turned my life upside down back in, I don't know, 2011, 2012. And Jeremy was one of the only... I had a lot of wise voices around me, but he was one of the only ones that really actually I feel like resonated with me. His advice, it was just different, out of the box, thoughtful. So we really connected there.
Then I was just barely married, and we were starting to have kids. And some of his advice on that side of things of just basically like, hey, there's this biblical vision for family that is kind of hidden in plain sight to a lot of Western people. Man, it's all over the scriptures. It only takes two minutes to kind of prove it. But it's very non-Western. So we kind of are reading with like a blurry vision about living as a multi-generational family team and God's vision in Genesis of a family team being one of His primary ways in which He wants to bless the world. And just really amazing things you see in scripture.
So that started to get unpacked then and really started to really bless us the minute we started having our first kid, and all these different rhythms and things that come with that. And so then I was kind of telling them like, Hey, you guys have been teaching and talking on this for so long, but you're, you know... It was kind of in a more regional way, a local way. My job was kind of the internet at that point. So I just said, like, Hey, some of this stuff needs to get brought on the internet. And so that's when we kind of partnered up and have run that ministry for a long, long time now.
Family Teams, familyteams.com for those listening. And yeah, between Forming Men, which would be the ministry this men's book is under, and Family Teams, the ministry... they're similar. There's crossover. Those are my two main things. That's what I spend most of my Monday through Friday thinking about, writing about, working on, and stuff like that.
Eric Huffman: Well, the paradigm shift of whatever it is that the Western family has been about, which is basically the goal is to send the kids away and the shift toward a multi-generational team on a mission together is so clear and so persuasive. I don't know what the word is, but it's beautiful and people respond to it. And once they get their head around it-
Jefferson Bethke: Well, it's interesting because you see it all over too. I'm actually reading, I think it's called The Patriarch. It's the book on the Kennedy fathers. I mean, the Kennedy Fathers, the Kennedy's father, excuse me, Joseph Kennedy.
It's such an interesting book to read with that parallel because obviously there's a ton of sin in there. He was adulterous and they were going for worldly power and all these things. But what he did have is a very clear multigenerational family vision that clearly has leapfrogged all of their peers because it was so non-the individualized Western vision. And I'm like, Man, that with all of the crap taken out and then all of the Bible put in is kind of what the good vision is in some sense.
It's like basically saying even with all his sinfulness, you could still see that like, Oh, the seed of how living in that way, living with a longer vision than your peers, with your family, and training and forming your kids in a way for a particular mission. I mean, it's crazy their pedigree. You got the president. You got the attorney general. You got the founder of the Special Olympics. I mean, their whole...
And he even said this. He said clearly as a father his goal was to... this isn't every father's goal, but his goal was to make enough money so that his kids would never have to worry about money so that they could give their lives to public service. That was a very clear family vision that he just charged for for 30 years, 40 years, and did. And it's like, man, when you're that clear on a vision, it works.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, in just one generation time, the total transformation that can happen in a family lineage. What about you and your family growing up? Think about your parents. What was that like for you? I've really enjoyed hearing you talk about your background. I think it shapes a lot of what we're going to talk about most of our conversation today. So what was your understanding of things like family and masculinity and femininity growing up?
Jefferson Bethke: I mean, obviously, as a kid, you're not thinking about it philosophically, but you're just kind of picking up pictures. And so yeah, my dad wasn't really around. He was in the picture, like, you know, custody, and I'd go see him here and there and stuff like that. But wasn't in the house from the day I was born. So I grew up with a single mom. My mom was amazing, incredible, loving, did her best, you know, struggled with mental illness. You know, our socioeconomic status was like one-click above homelessness, so very, very difficult there. So,, yeah, a very interesting upbringing.
Then, of course, when you're a kid, you're just like, This is normal. I wouldn't have thought anything about it. It's just whatever. Until you get older, you start seeing peers, you start seeing other thing, you're like, Oh, maybe this isn't normal. But it certainly affected me. I mean, yeah, I certainly saw pictures of an uninformed or a misformed or a deformed vision of masculinity, not only with my dad not being around and how that impacted me and impacted him, but also just when you grow up in kind of a predominantly lower income area, you see a lot of the same patterns, you know what I mean, of that and how the cycles repeat, even though you're trying to run away from the cycle. So there's a lot of interesting things there. But yeah, certainly saw all of the brokenness of all of these models early.
Eric Huffman: And at what point early on did, or maybe not early on, whenever, did Jesus sort of become one of the men you were looking up to or maybe the one you looked up to the most?
Jefferson Bethke: I grew up in a church context, so I mean, I kind of was like, you know, I did want to hear and there and stuff like that, but I don't feel like it was really... it was more cultural at some level, and still very impactful, I think, even at a cultural level, you know?
People I looked up to, people I was impacted to, the church was really gracious to us, groceries for us, loved us. I have a great, great vision of the church as a child. But yeah, I didn't start walking with the Lord until college. So it had been about 19... I just had a radical experience with the Lord at college where my life was just going down the dumps, basically, and I just kind of finally was like, Oh, what is...? You know, ask all the big questions. Why am I here? What am I doing? What's the purpose? Is this really what we're here for? Stuff like that. But that would have been at 19.
Eric Huffman: Nineteen. So you were a freshman? Sophomore, freshman?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, freshman.
Eric Huffman: What precipitated that experience?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, just that life started... I got kicked off the baseball team, academic probation, some of these other things. And I was actually going to a Christian college, not for the Christian college aspect, I was just playing baseball there. And in God's providence, you know, you got a lot of awesome people around you and stuff that I started asking questions to and stuff.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, okay. So at 19, you started taking Jesus really seriously.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, for sure.
Eric Huffman: What was it about Him that drew you in to that degree?
Jefferson Bethke: I mean, I think just the grace, man. You understand the grace, the forgiveness of your sins, the destiny and legacy that He calls you into and has for you, and that you really realize that as a human, you are literally created to worship God. I think just that is like, this is what I'm created for: to follow Him, to devote my life to Him. And He has kind of gone first in that equation. And it's so compelling when you really understand that.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Well, one thing I really enjoyed about the book and just your approach to the masculinity conversation is that you and John, you guys don't sort of cast a vision or projection of some kind of theoretical Superman guy that we're all supposed to be. You look to Jesus as the sort of prototypical framework of ideal masculinity. And I appreciated that.
But obviously, for most people, you know, Jesus isn't the prototypical male or the ideal male. They have other sort of ideals that they look to or, you know... and masculinity gets all kinds of twisted in our culture for that reason. But maybe you could just start this part of our conversation by talking about the ways you see masculinity today under attack and how we're getting it wrong. Like, what's the problem with masculinity today?
Jefferson Bethke: Well, I think there's a few. I would say first to your point of, yeah, I mean, Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He is also the image of what it means to be a human, and He's also the image of what it means to be a man. So, I mean, there's a lot of layers there to Jesus.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Jefferson Bethke: He's showing us what God is like. He's showing us what it means to be truly human, but then He also is entered the world as a male. So then He's also showing us what it means to be a male. And there's, again, different reasons and layers for all of those, but I think having to slice those out, understand those is really, really helpful.
And you have to ask yourself as a man, you know, all of us live archetypally with vision, whether we like it or not, or realize it or not. Meaning, all of us have what the Greeks would call a telos, a north star in which we are directing our hearts, passions, desires, and visions in a primal way without even realizing it. Our affections of our heart are going towards something.
And you can smoke that out by asking, Hey, what do you daydream about? You know, like, is it... That's a very easy. Like, when you're just not thinking about anything in a focused way, where do you go? Do you go towards the beach with a margarita? Do you go towards making a lot of money? Do you go towards a vision of a ton of kids? Whatever it is. But that is what the telos is. It's this kind of this engine in your heart, without you realizing it, that you're actually navigating and architecting all of your life towards and making decisions based on.
There's only one appropriate answer to that, by the way, and that's Jesus and you deeply formed in His image and the Kingdom of God. Those are the only appropriate answers to a healthy telos. Anything else is like a misfire or what we would call an idol. A lot of men, those aren't the answers that they would give. Again, it's money acquisition, ambition, status at work.
And it can even be good things, but that just can't hold the weight of your heart's desire. Like, again, a healthy family. It could be not being like your dad. Those are great things. But those can't hold the weight of your telos, like the full center of your being.
So a lot of men, that's where they take a big misstep. As I tell men, you have to start there. You have to smoke that out. You gotta spend time in prayer, journaling, whatever you want to call it, to be like, what is that in me? Because every guy has two, three, four, proclivities of a false telos that isn't the appropriate one. And if you don't know what they are, then you're just absolutely serving them without even realizing and you're going in a bad direction.
That's where I tell men to start is like, what is that? Is it like a vision of a man that's like, again, more like the... you know, strong, buff, 1% body fat man that you'd tell us? Is it the money? Is it the ambition? Is it the good things? Is it the not being like your dad? Whatever it is. Great things, but those can't beat the centering affection of your heart and the reason why you do things. That can only be following Jesus, because you love Him, you want to be more like Him in the kingdom of God. So that's where I would start, if that makes sense.
Eric Huffman: No, it does. You and John have illustrated sort of three different ways that masculinity can go right or wrong, and three ways that masculinity is expressed these days. And you talk about in terms of repression, release, or reorientation. Could you just kind of walk us through an explanation of those three, maybe with some examples of each?
Jefferson Bethke: I think the first two are kind of the only options that the American culture tends to give right now. You know, we kind of only give two choices as a man today. Because it is a weird place to be a man right now. It's not comfortable. It's hard to understand even what that means. Our culture does not really like the word "man", man doesn't like men in general. There's a lot of things there.
Eric Huffman: Is that what you mean by the way when you say that masculinity is under attack? What you just illustrated right there, is that what you mean? Like with...
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, yeah. And I don't think it's like under attack in the sense of like, Oh, woe is me, like we're victims or anything like that. But I do think there's a spirit in parts of culture, not all of culture right now, that believes being a man and what comes with that is one of the primary evils of our world that needs to be cleansed. That's an obvious, obvious thing that you can just see if you just go on Twitter for five minutes.
Eric Huffman: X, you mean.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, exactly.
Eric Huffman: So it's either...
Jefferson Bethke: I would say, yeah, repress, release, and then reform or kind of reorient. So there's two temptations. So then when you're hit with that spirit, it's okay, repress. Just put everything about yourself and your manness that you feel like is in you down, right? Whether that can be leadership capabilities. Of course, females have leadership capabilities as well. But in and of ourselves, repressing that, repressing courage, bravery, all these kind of classic virtues and just kind of saying, like, yes, I will just be whatever you tell me to be and I will emasculate myself in all regards and I will be genderless in some sense, spiritually, physically, emotionally, psychologically.
Eric Huffman: And a lot of times those guys are critical of masculinity, too. Like, they'll get on the bandwagon.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, totally. It's basically taking that side and saying, yes, I agree, I am the problem, and so let me just cower. That's essentially what that one is. Then the second one is kind of like the Jocko, Andrew Tate, you know, Jordan Peterson. And those guys are all created differently, by the way. I enjoy some things of some of those guys.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, they're not all the same. Yeah, for sure.
Jefferson Bethke: And I don't enjoy some of those guys at all. So they're not all the same, but they are in the archetype of like very hyper... like hyper-masculine as a picture of like, oh, just like train harder, get up at 4 a.m., get buff, get all the girls. That would certainly be an Andrew Tate vibe of like, you know, it's just like release the masculinity in the sinful way. It's just like let it have no... don't have any boundaries on it, don't put any limits on it, and just release it in a sinful way, to just be as angry and as sexual and as violent as you should be and want to be because that's true masculinity, and culture's telling you to put that down.
Eric Huffman: Dude, that's gotten so bad. It's gotten so bad that in the last year, I found myself having to preach about it and to preach to parents about-
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, totally. It's a real thing. And it's very reactionary. People are feeling very upset by the other one, so then they're releasing. But I think the true answer that no one's talking about is reorienting and reframing of like, okay, how do we take our masculinity, but make sure that it's not just coming out in an unhindered way, but is actually reoriented towards holiness, towards everything. It needs to be compressed and focused, which is actually the definition technically in the Greek of being an athlete, is to compress and focus in a particular direction.
And so, yeah, our masculinity needs to be compressed. We need to allow the compression to push off the sinful parts of it, the broken parts of it, the parts that need to be tamed, for lack of a better term, and then allow us to focus and push towards the parts that need to be untamed. We need to release and, excuse me, reorient that energy to towards healthy things, towards not ourselves, not our selfishness, not just our pleasures and our carnal desires, but actually towards other people and serving, which is exactly what Jesus did. He progressed and focused His energy towards serving others.
Eric Huffman: What are some specific examples of ways that Jesus did that? Like how did He embody the reoriented masculinity for us?
Jefferson Bethke: Well, I think the obvious answer is just coming down to earth at all. He could have just not sacrificed at all. He could have just been like, yeah, I'm comfortable. I am good in my glory and in heaven and with my authority. So him coming at all is a huge, huge show of like, oh, he put others above Himself to the point of even literally Him taking all the hits. That's really essentially what He did. It's like, I'll take hits for other people so that they might be saved. And to the literal point of death at the end of the finish line of his story. So I would say that's a very obvious one.
As men, do you sacrifice yourself in a rhythmic, consistent way of putting others above yourself to the point where you take hits? Like you're supposed to absorb hits for other people. I do think that is a huge part of what it means to be a man. And that can look different ways. That can be different. But I think you kind of know when you're doing it.
Eric Huffman: That's interesting because I think like the Andrew Tate sort of vibe would say that's being a simp or that's being a doormat or whatever. And there's a lot of masculinity advocates out there saying that being a real man is never taking a hit. It's giving me hits.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, totally, and fighting back and all these things. And it's to me like, well, what's harder, by the way? It's like it's harder, the easiest thing is to fight back. So to me, that actually feels like low bar of excellence. The hardest thing is to take a hit for a bigger vision or for a particular purpose, you know, when people are yelling at you, screaming at you, whatever. I'm thinking specifically of the life of Jesus.
Eric Huffman: But is that the same thing as being, you know, a coward or a doormat? Like, what's the difference there?
Jefferson Bethke: I don't think so, because it's controlled power. I think that's one of the definitions I believe of humility in the Greek as well is it's kind of like the same, it's very close to the picture they have of like a sword keeps staying in a sheath.
Eric Huffman: Oh, that's meekness.
Jefferson Bethke: And I find that's an interesting image that like... yeah, it's like that the sword is still a weapon that can kill, but the power of humility is actually keeping it in there. So I think a coward would be like one who doesn't have a sword or you know what I mean, or doesn't have the power that is being restrained.
But I think restraining power when it is for a good reason to be restrained seems to me like actually the ultimate most difficult thing to do.
Eric Huffman: Better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, exactly.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, I've heard that. That's great. So other examples of Jesus's masculinity. I mean, I've heard you talk about Jesus knew when to cry and when to turn tables.
Jefferson Bethke: I mean, He's a full-rounded, emotionally healthy being, which is enormously huge, right? Like He can literally call down legions of an army of angels. He can insanely powerfully heal people. He can cry, He can pray. The best way to put it is he's literally a full-rounded, emotionally healthy being. Most men aren't. Most men know how to be angry, they don't know how to cry, or most men are too overly sensitive and have never actually stepped out on the battlefield. That's a very easy way to understand that Jesus is the most well-rounded, emotionally healthy being that's ever existed. And when you study Him, then I think you really realize that.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, beautiful, man. I love it. And I think it's clear and compelling. So thank you for sharing that with me and our listeners. Now, what we have in the church today, I think, is sort of... I don't know, it's not that different from the crisis of masculinity I see in the world. I don't know what your perspective of it is. But so much of church is pretty... I don't know, it seems pretty hyper-feminized. And yet you also have some branches of Christianity that are just kind of like Andrew Tate Lite, Andrew Tate with a cross up front. And you also have a lot of pastors that are falling, right?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah.
Eric Huffman: And that's gotta be having an effect on young men and boys and sort of muddying the waters even more, don't you think?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that what it really shows is we don't really care or value spiritual formation, like deep spiritual formation. We care about the stages, we care about numbers, we care about charisma, but we really don't care and where the rubber meets the road, which is deep, genuine spiritual formation, which is people actually following Jesus in a deep, rhythmic, consistent way with deep, rich, consistent spiritual practices that continually allow the dial of sin to go down and the dial of virtue to go up. And I think that's just basically what's clear as day with people falling and stuff like that, is we're showing that we're not people of spiritual formation anymore.
Eric Huffman: How would the church in America look different today, especially in terms of men and male participation, if we valued the things you're talking about?
Jefferson Bethke: Well, I think there would be less. There would still be falling, because we're a sinful world. Of course, of course. And there's still mistakes, and there's sin, and there's lust, and there's the flesh, and all those things. But I do think there would be less. I think there would be less of that.
I think spiritual formation leads to more groundedness is the best way to put it. So like a really heavy anchoring. I think we wouldn't be co-opted by politics as much anymore. We wouldn't be kind of just ripped around by kind of the voices of today. We would be a very creative, beautiful, prophetic minority that's grounded. Yeah, those are some of the things that jump out to me.
Eric Huffman: What kind of vision for masculinity are we giving men with the model of Christianity that we have in the American West?
Jefferson Bethke: I mean, I think it's tough to say because there's so many different pockets of evangelicalism and stuff like that, and there's a lot of really good, beautiful visions. What I think does tend to be a big common denominator is what you said, it's kind of the feminization of church. Now, to be fair, that happened... it's like is that the chicken or the egg thing? So I have to totally acknowledge that. And I think some people don't acknowledge that, which bothers me of like, is there... more women go to church. So of course, they're going to then shape that place in their own image.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Jefferson Bethke: Right? Now, is that the reason why men aren't coming to church? Or is it like the chicken or the egg thing of men aren't coming to church? You know what I mean? So it's like, which one was first?
Eric Huffman: Or did men just abdicate?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, yeah. And I think there's a little bit of both. I think it's always healthy to just have both sides say, Oh, what have we done wrong here? What can we assess? I think men realizing that they've probably abdicated a lot of spiritual leadership to their counterparts, you know, whether it's their wives, sisters, females, that should be there, by the way. Women lead just as well and amazingly, but they've completely just, you know, made theirs zero. Men, I think a lot of men. And be like, oh, that's my wife's domain, the female's domain. It's like, no, it's both. We're created to co-labor and co-create in the garden and two counterparts of each other that are not the same, but meant to reign and rule. I think that's really important.
Eric Huffman: I remember growing up just thinking as a young man that my role as a Christian man is basically to be decent and kind of good and nice. And I sense you and John in your book really calling men to be more... really Jesus calling us to be more. And you're just sort of making that call on Christ's behalf. But what is that more? What else are we being called into as men?
Jefferson Bethke: Well, I think the fullness of yourself, I think that's the best way. That's why we call it Fighting Shadows. There's a lot of men, and honestly, a lot of women, just a lot of people are shadows of themselves. They're not shadows of their former selves, shadows of their current selves, whatever you want to call it. Actually, I would even say shadows of their future self.
If we're created by God, to follow Him, it's kind of like that Moses-his-face-glowing situation that Paul talks about in 2 Corinthians, of like, you're being transformed from one degree of glory to the next when you're truly following Jesus. I don't think a lot of people would say that's their spiritual journey. They wouldn't say that they're being transformed from one degree of glory to the next. But that's the bar. That's what we're called to, and that's what it's meant to look like.
Eric Huffman: I want to talk more in-depth about the Shadows in a second, but real quick, you've made mention of spiritual formation for men several times now, and I want to ask the question. What is the difference between spiritual formation writ large in the church, like we normally do it for women and children, for example, and what needs to be happening for men to spiritually form them?
Jefferson Bethke: Well, I think that's a good question. I mean, I think that comes down to traits. I think that comes down to any parts of masculinity that aren't the same for women. But I think it is a little bit of you got to figure it out on your own a little bit. The best way to put it is like spiritual formation is... it's about real bodies and real life. So it's like, what is your life? What is the true picture of your...
Here's the best way to think about it. Who are you in your future self that God has designed you to be? What does that look like? What kind of leader are you? What kind of human are you? What kind of lover are you? What kind of servant are you? What kind of man are you? You have to answer those questions on your own a little bit, okay?
You then work backwards of all spiritual formation is, is rhythms, disciplines, and practices to take you there. And so it's like, what would that look like? That really comes down to context. That comes down to the person. That comes down to: Are they single? Are they married? That comes down to: Are they a father? Do they have kids? Do they not? Are they a CEO? Are they an employee?
But whatever it is, it's like, who are you? That's the easiest way. It's not a tricky question. It's just, who are you? And how do you stop sucking and start being a better version of yourself that looks more like the image of Jesus?
Eric Huffman: I think it just clicked for me the difference between the question I was asking and the answer you're giving. Because for a second there, I was like, I feel like we're not connecting, but I get it now. I'm talking about it from a church program perspective. You're talking about it from the individual man's perspective. Like, let's stop depending on churches to program this for us.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, exactly.
Eric Huffman: Let's be the men God made us to be in our own right.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, 100%.
Eric Huffman: Bro, that's awesome. But I agree though. I mean, churches are pivotal. I do think we over... it's similar to our vision of government. We over-depend on the systems of institutions, even though they can be deeply helpful. And so, yeah, whether it's men, women, even children with Sunday school, etc., you have to make all of institutions supplementally helpful, or else you're basically a spiritual foster kid. You know what I mean? If you're having them do everything. And so it's like you have to really have your own anchoring and then they can be deeply helpful and beneficial and robust as they would like to be, but it can't be the only thing.
Eric Huffman: Well, one thing I've realized in the last few years is that whatever the case, programs aren't working for men typically, like church programs aren't doing the trick. And so it has to be something else. The answer has to be somewhere else. I know that part of the answer, a massive part of the answer for me, figuring out how to overcome addiction, how to overcome my own sin and, and just the patterns that I kept getting myself into that led to despair and depression. So much of it had to do with locking arms with other dudes.
Like, I can't tell you enough, like what a healing thing that's been for me. And I've learned only in the recent couple of years. I've been a pastor for 20 years, bro and I've only recently learned the value of deep, intimate male friendships. I finally learned what the Bible means when it said, David loved Jonathan more than he ever loved a woman. Because the connection men can have is so pure. And so it's like a refining fire. It's so good. And there's nothing on earth like it.
In the past couple of weeks, I was going to say days, it's been weeks, I've had one guy sit me down, like we're as close as two guys can be and he's looking me in the eyes he's telling me, "I said something to you a year ago. I've been holding onto it. I didn't mean to say it the way that I said it. I love you, brother. I'm sorry." And I was like, "I don't even remember what you said, but I love you for saying that." It's just sweet. It's life-changing, man.
And guys that are locked in sinful patterns will avoid it. Even subconsciously, you'll avoid it. However, you can break through that avoidance and lock arms with men that'll pick you up and raise you up a level. Like that's what you need. And I just want to say, if guys are listening, it's probably what you're lacking is that kind of male community.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah. And it's so critical. It's so critical. That's why we have a whole chapter on the loneliness chapter is that basically in the book of, yeah, we're created for kind of like triads. We're created for small, rich tribes and community of men. And yeah, if you're not having that, you will just be at such a lack. You will be at such a lack. And we found that to be one of the core key answers that really serves men is when they get in deep, rich, life-giving relationships.
Eric Huffman: Amen. We got about 10 minutes left, man. I want to talk about the book in more specificity. Just tell us about the title and what Fighting Shadows means.
Jefferson Bethke: Metaphor of the seven core dominant shadows that are over a man's heart. And we picked the metaphor of shadows because there's a couple of things that are true about shadows, right? One, they're dead silent. They don't make any noise. Darkness is kind of foggy, right? Kind of like you can't really see in front of you. And then they follow you. Shadows follow you. And I'm like, man, that's exactly spiritually what I think a lot of men feel like, is there's these seven dominant lies that are silently hovering over their heart, silently making them kind of feel around and be like, Ah, just hazy and cloudy, and then silently following them everywhere they go unless they deal with them. So that's why we got really, really excited about the metaphor. It's been cool to see early readers really resonate with the metaphor. But then call it fighting shadows of like, but you don't just have to kill over and die. Like there is an active participation with the power of Jesus for you to get free of these lies.
Back to that one I just mentioned with the loneliness one, that's one of the core of the seven. For the reason you just said, that like men are starving and dying spiritually, physically, emotionally even, because they don't have real rich relationships. There's a trade that I talk about in that chapter that certainly ambitious men make, but I would say almost all men make in their 20s and 30s.
There's this book called Lonely at the Top that talks about this, where we basically trade success and ambition and goals we have in life that we then apply through our work for community. That's just a trade almost every man makes from their 20s to 30s, and it's psychologically proven, sociologically proven, that then at about 35 to 45 in that 10-year span, you wake up and you go, Oh, I think I really messed this up. I maybe have the money I want, maybe I'm at decently at the job I want, but there's no one here. There's no one here. And he's like, that's a trade that's just a horrible, horrible trade that 90% of American men make, that we're kind of arguing, Hey, you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. There's a way to still go after the goals and visions, etc, you want.
But actually, when you do it together with other men, it's actually way more life-giving and way more beneficial to you and your heart and the richness of what you're trying to pursue.
Eric Huffman: Amen. The seven shadows that y'all cover are despair, loneliness, shame, lust, ambition, futility, and apathy. Not to call you right out, but is there one of those or one or two of those that has been especially a factor in your life that you've had to fight back?
Jefferson Bethke: Oh yeah, I mean, that's the reason why I wrote those chapters. Me and John divvied up the chapters based on which ones we felt best to give encouragement on, which usually resonates with what we walked through. So I think I wrote the first four. So those first four, loneliness, I'm blankering out.
Eric Huffman: Despair, shame, and lust.
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah, despair, lust John wrote. But yeah, so like those first couple definitely are the ones that resonated, or certainly were coming from my story, that then is the reason why I wrote it, for sure.
Eric Huffman: Well, I know you've already sort of overcome a lot of those battles. I mean, they never, I guess, go away entirely. We're always fighting for more light. But was it cathartic to write the book?
Jefferson Bethke: Oh, yeah, 100%. I mean, not every author is like this, but I 100% write books based on like... they're almost my own medicine for me. I constantly am writing pretty closely from a journey. So only a couple of years back, usually. And then it very much is very healing to kind of close it out, put a bow on it. You know what I mean?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Jefferson Bethke: And of course, like you said, they don't go away, but there is something cathartic to close it out in some regard of deeply process it. Like, what a gift that I get to do that, right, that most men don't, is that when you go through a segment of your life that's difficult and you learn something, you kind of just be like, Oh, I have a couple cool things in my head, and then you move on.
I literally get to sit down and research and completely write out and close it and give it a buttoned-up framework that's actually really, really helpful. I mean, that's a side note-
Eric Huffman: Oh, man.
Jefferson Bethke: ...but that is a really, really helpful gift to me.
Eric Huffman: And telling your story, whether it's in testimony or spoken word, as you've done in the past, or writing a book, I mean, it's so healing. And it fortifies your own journey and your own holiness, but it also brings redemption to the struggles you faced in the past because you're bringing others to the light by your testimony and by the grace of God.
Jefferson Bethke: Exactly.
Eric Huffman: I know you said that John wrote the lust portion, but lust and porn has been part of my journey and something I've talked a lot about. I just wondered if you could talk to that issue just a bit before we wrap here. What word of encouragement or I guess what word of caution might you give to some guy or, I mean, women are into this too, but like, what would you say about this particular problem, this particular shadow?
Jefferson Bethke: I think C.S. Lewis nails it on the head. Anything you read on him for lust, desire, passion, etc., is like top-tier. He basically talks about with lust specifically, it's not that our desires are too big, it's that they're too little, right? And what he means by that is that like... and I think people don't realize this, is they think like, oh, lust is the strongest thing I feel and then saying no to that and going into like a zombie-like state of not feeling anything is the appropriate response.
The actual biblical response to defeat lust is you have to have a greater passion. And you are created for that, meaning it's actually... Giving into lust is demoting, dehumanizing the level of passion in which God has given you. When you can unlock that, there's a lot of practical things that are necessary to find healing, whether it's accountability, devices, phone, brains, psychology, counseling, all those things.
But I do think one of the core things you have to unlock is what I'm saying right there, which is you have to realize that you are actually created for more and giving into lust and the false passions of sexuality and not the healthy visions of sexuality is a demotion of your passions and actually kind of like animalistically feeding them rather than image of God feeding them, I think is a really huge... I found a lot of guys tend to be that, tends to be the seed that unlocks something for them of realizing, Oh, it's not that I'm actually... It's actually that my passions and my desires are too little. I'm created for more, not less.
Eric Huffman: Man. Dude, I'm so proud of you and proud of the story arc I've seen of your life since I first discovered you sort of, gosh, 12, 13 years ago, was it, the video?
Jefferson Bethke: Yeah.
Eric Huffman: The video, capital V.
Jefferson Bethke: Now back to the point, one thing is vital to mention, how Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrums. See, one's the work of God, but one's a man-made invention. See, one is the cure, but the other's the infection. See, because religion says do, Jesus says done. Religion says slave, Jesus says son.
Eric Huffman: I rocked my world then and I know a lot has changed since then. What you usually... I don't want to say usually, it's pretty dark, but like what you tend to see with guys that get famous in the Christian world or anywhere is that it doesn't last. And you've just been steadfast. I'm not talking about your fame, just your character has been steadfast and consistent and God just keeps using you, man. What do you attribute that to? How are you different now, let's say? How are you different now than you were when you recorded that famous video years ago?
Jefferson Bethke: Well, very different. I would say, what do I attribute it to, though? I would say, I mean, that's just like community and mentors, 100%. Is if you're not living a real life with real people who are webbed with you in an interlocking relationship of community, then that's almost always how you go off the deep end. And yeah, I've been around this stuff enough now to see like, yeah, the main thing is like the isolation.
When men start to, or women, when leaders start to feel like it's actually serving them to isolate more because they're special or whatever-
Eric Huffman: Or they're deserved. Yeah, bro.
Jefferson Bethke: And I get the lie. I get the lie that tends to transact in their brain of it's not just, oh, I'm ultra-special and famous or anything like that. What it actually is is like the lie is like, oh, I need to do this to protect my time or whatever. It's like a lot more subtle. But yeah, it's like you just need to be a real person in real life with real accountability for people that actually really know you, really know you, not just your stage version or whatever. That's what I attribute it to. But there's still sin. There's still crap in my heart. There's still things that could kill me over time. And so bringing that into community, bringing that into light constantly has to be a habit and a ritual.
How am I different? I mean, way different. You know, I mean, I was a college kid, no kids, wasn't married. I don't even know where I could start on where I'm different, but I am very different. I think I've gotten closer to Jesus, hopefully, pretty deeply over the last 12 years. I think I'm softer than I was 12 years ago. And I think I am a little bit... you know, and this happens with everyone, I just see the world as a little bit more complex than I thought it was 12 years ago. And those are some things that pop off the top of my head.
Eric Huffman: When you say softer, what do you mean?
Jefferson Bethke: Just like more gentle and more kind. I used to be really like... just not as... you know, when you're 20, it's the classic college student spirit, but just the like, I'm right, everyone's an idiot, you know?
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Man, well, you're affecting and impacting a lot of lives for the Lord. So I just pray you'll keep going. If folks want to find you online or social media or wherever and follow you, how would they do that?
Jefferson Bethke: Jefferson Bethke on Instagram, is probably where I'm most active and where I can kind of respond to messages, say hi, and hang out. But then jeffandalissa.com would be my website that has a lot of stuff. But then the pertinent stuff to this, what we're talking about is formingmen.com. The book, men's stuff, masculinity, formingmen.com for sure.
Eric Huffman: I've got the book here, Fighting Shadows: Overcoming Seven Lies That Keep Men From Becoming Fully Alive. Officially releasing May 21st, you said?
Jefferson Bethke: Right.
Eric Huffman: If you're listening or watching, be sure to check out Jeremy Pryor's episodes with us as well from several months back on Family Teams. We talk a little bit about Jeff in those as well. So yeah, that'll kind of round out this whole story. But Jefferson Bethke, thank you so much for making the time for us today, brother.
Jefferson Bethke: Hey, thank you so much, man. This was an absolute blast.
Eric Huffman: In recent years, it's become fashionable for some preachers and religious influencers, in response to the world's war on masculinity, to harken back to the good old days when, as they say, men were men. They went to work, they served their country, they married virgins, and had lots of babies. They ate red meat and saw the world in black and white. But most importantly, they were always in control of their feelings. They were like Marlboro men who just happened to go to church on Sundays.
While I appreciate the effort to counter the cultural narrative, and I believe there's value in encouraging men to stand up and grow a backbone, I think it's vital that Christians who are searching for the ideal male role model learn to look no further than Jesus Himself. Jesus was both strong and gentle, stoic and emotional, impervious and vulnerable, completely loving and brutally honest.
Men were completely drawn to Him. Women felt totally safe with Him. Even kids wanted to spend time around Him. If you want to know what authentic masculinity, godly masculinity, really looks like, take a closer look at Jesus, and you'll see it. And by following Him and worshiping Him, every man can become more like Him.
Julie Mirlicourtois: This episode of Maybe God was produced by Julie Mirlicourtois, Adira Polite, and Eric and Geovanna Huffman. Our editor is Justin Mayer, and Donald Kilgore is the director of Maybe God's full-length YouTube videos. Please help more listeners find Maybe God by rating and reviewing us wherever you're listening today. Thanks for tuning in.