Can We Still Be Friends?
Inside This Episode
In a world riddled with political idolatry and endless rage bait, division and strife have become the norm. Even Christians have fallen prey to this polarization, causing us to abandon the biblical call to unity in favor of our favorite political commentators. Though it seems as if meaningful and respectful disagreement is a relic of the past, apologist Sean McDowell insists that these conversations are not only possible — they're ESSENTIAL. For years now, Sean has been critically engaging the world on his own wildly popular YouTube channel. In this interview, Eric and Sean discuss the traumatic upbringing of Sean's well-known father, Josh McDowell, the questions that led to Sean's teenage deconstruction, the upcoming election, and Sean's new book, "End the Stalemate: Move Past Cancel Culture to Meaningful Conversations."
Read Sean’s book: https://www.amazon.com/End-Stalemate-Culture-Meaningful-Conversations/dp/1496481151
Head to YouTube to watch Maybe God’s full-length interviews!
Transcript
Eric Huffman: We've become more polarized and divided than ever, and it feels like meaningful, respectful conversations between people who disagree with each other have become a thing of the past. So is it even possible to have deep discussions with people who see the world differently than us without sacrificing our deepest convictions and beliefs?
Our guest today insists that not only are these conversations possible, they're essential, and for years he's been showing the world how it's done on his wildly popular YouTube channel.
Sean McDowell, this is an honor. Welcome to May Be God.
Sean McDowell: Oh, thanks for having me. I've been a fan of what you guys are doing and honored to finally have this conversation.
Eric Huffman: The honor is all mine. I've been a fan and follower of your work for many years, and this feels like a surreal experience to me. But I'll try not to be a fanboy too much here, but this is cool for me, man. I really appreciate it.
Sean McDowell: That's awesome.
Eric Huffman: So you're a professor at Biola University in California. You've written tons and tons of books and other things online. And you just came out with a new book called "End the Stalemate", that we'll talk about in a bit. But first, let's just make sure everybody gets to know you a little bit. Let's back up and talk about who you are and sort of a little bit about your upbringing.
Sean McDowell: Yeah, I'd be happy to. I grew up in a small town in the mountains of San Diego called Julian. There was no stoplight in the town. Grew up in the 80s and 90s biking around, telling my mom I'd see her hours later at night, kind of like you see in like "Stranger Things", kids just out biking and having adventures. Kind of my life growing up.
My parents are on Campus Crusade for Christ crew. Probably a lot of your audience will recognize the name Josh McDowell, my father who had been speaking and writing and an apologist long before I was even born. He never said to me once, "Hey, you should be an apologist. You should write a book." I'm glad he didn't.
But he just lived an authentic life. He believed it. I saw him live with passion. And as I went through my own period of questioning and doubt in college, began to realize, "Wow, I have a heart for the next generation like my parents do. I'm wired to ask questions and think apologetically.
Five minutes into working with students, they have tough questions. So at that stage, I was like, I want to work and become a high school teacher. And I did Bible for a decade. Then all the other stuff just started growing out of that. But really, it was just a heart to work with high school students, help answer their tough questions and teach them the Bible. On top of that, I've been married, this spring, 25 years to my high school sweetheart, and we've got three kids.
Eric Huffman: Congratulations. 25 years is a big deal. I think we share a few things in common. First of all, both preacher's kids, but both been married 25 years. We just celebrated our 25 year anniversary as well.
Sean McDowell: Nice.
Eric Huffman: We were married a little bit before you guys. I think I read you guys were married in 2000. We were married in 1999. So our honeymoon was like preparing for Y2K and stuff. But that was a different time.
So your dad, obviously a legend in the Christian world, especially evangelical circles. Anybody that grew up in that world knows the name Josh McDowell. Sounds like you had a pretty good relationship. Is that fair to say, growing up?
Sean McDowell: Yeah, I did have a good relationship, and I still have a great relationship with my dad. And I think that has a lot to do with wanting to be an apologist in my life and not having hurt or resentment at the church. He was the same onstage and offstage, same passionate, sometimes over-the-top person who's larger than life. It's just the way he's wired.
Last night we were watching my daughter play a volleyball game, and he was there with my mom and got to spend some time with them. So yeah, we've had a great relationship.
Eric Huffman: I think that is something you're hearing a lot more these days, just the power of fathers in a person's life. A good relationship with your father can help you avoid so many pitfalls that are so easy to fall into. And talk a lot about other kinds of privilege, race-based or gender-based privilege, but man, father privilege is a powerful thing and really does set you up in ways that not having a father or not having a great relationship with your dad might not.
So your dad's story is different, though. Josh had a different situation growing up. Could you talk a little bit about his upbringing and his relationship with his father and what happened in his childhood?
Sean McDowell: Sure. My dad had about as broken of a background as you'll find in terms of a father in a small town in Michigan who's a town alcoholic and the shame that comes from everybody knowing who your dad is. My dad's older sister took her own life.
My dad shared with me… This was not long ago. I actually didn't know this. He said, "You know, when I was walking out to the barn one day with my dad, he said, 'You know, son, you were a mistake. We don't even want you.'" He said that to him.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Sean McDowell: I mean, that statement alone can damage you. My dad was also severely sexually abused for seven years by someone who lived on their farm. So my dad was born in 1939. His dad, 1898, I think it was. My grandpa was born in the 1800s. It's crazy to think about. In the 1940s, nobody talked about sexual abuse. I mean, they didn't in the 80s or 90s.
Told his mom, she refused to believe him. And it went on until he slammed the man against the wall when he was about 13, a guy who was working on the farm and said, "If you touch me again, I'll kill you." And this was long before he was a Christian. He meant it and it stopped.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Sean McDowell: You talk about the brokenness and hurt and pain that goes deep there. My dad's forgiven the man who abused him, forgave his father, but there are just certain scars and memories that you have for a lifetime.
You know, my dad's story, I don't know how much depth you want to get me into, but basically thought Christians were idiots. And this is... I guess it must've been in the 50s if I'm doing the math, right? Later 50s. He was challenged by some Christians to consider the claims of Christ, he thought it was a joke.
At that time, really the only apologists were like C.S. Lewis and Francis Schaeffer. You couldn't go by popular apologetic stuff anywhere. That's why evidence that demands verdict was so revolutionary. People are like, there's actually evidence Jesus is God and the scriptures are true, and He's risen from the grave. People just didn't have access to this stuff.
So he was surprised by the evidence, but the way he would phrase it is the evidence God is attention. But it's really when he understood the love of God that drew him.
And then about six months after being a believer, he was mentored in the scriptures by a pastor of a small church. And man, sometimes I just think about how indebted I am to this pastor who just sat my dad down for six months and they read the scriptures and they talk about forgiveness and loving your neighbor and healing and just helped him through this trauma, where after six months, my dad was like, wow, this is true because God has literally changed my heart and my mind through the scriptures.
Eric Huffman: What a difference! Like one person can make, in a seemingly sort of, you know, everyday conversation or series of conversations, a difference that outlived that pastor. You know, the ripple effects into other people's lives. Like yours.
So your father came to faith in Christ at what age, more or less, what time period of that was that in his life?
Sean McDowell: He must've been about 20. He was at junior college. 20 or lower 20s. And then ended up going to Wheaton college and then Talbot seminary and joining crew staff into the mid-60s or so.
Eric Huffman: So in a way, the first 20 years of your life and your dad's life were inversed because you grew up in the faith and you started questioning things pretty mightily in your late teens, early 20s. You mentioned that earlier. What was it specifically that triggered your deconstruction, if we can call it that?
Sean McDowell: I think it was two things. I think one piece was I was in this class. It's funny. I don't always share this piece of it. But I was in this class called Authentic Manhood. And it was a great class at Biola. It was all about growing up, being a man, owning your hurts and your wounds. The premise was like, how have you been wounded by your father? And I'm like, "I haven't, my dad's perfect. He writes books on this stuff."
And the teacher looked me in the face, he's like, "Don't give me that expletive." He goes, "Your dad traveled half the time and he had baggage growing up. That must have affected you." And it was like, because my dad had such a public ministry, it was the first time I was like... I always wanted to protect that. I was like, "You're right. He's human. He's not perfect." And I missed him sometimes when he was gone. And so I just hadn't given myself permission.
And really part of growing up is just looking at the people in our lives and giving them a combination of thankfulness for the way they've influenced us, but just grace where they fell short. Nobody's perfect in our lives. And I hope my kids will do the same thing with me.
So that's just kind of a growing up stage where at that point, it just kind of, I don't know, it made me think about things on a deeper level with my own faith. I remember that was kind of in this season in the background.
The bigger issue though was I got on the internet... and this is like... it must've been, I don't know, 94, 95. And there was no Google yet. But a lot of the secular web was built on responding to my dad's book chapter by chapter, evidence that demands a verdict because that was the apologetics at the time.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Sean McDowell: And these are doctors, lawyers, historians, who were smart. And it was the first time I remember having the thought Eric of like, Wow, my parents mean well, but they could be wrong. Maybe evolution better explains things. Maybe there's contradictions in the Bible. Maybe Jesus is just patterned after these dying and rising gods of the ancient near East. And it just rocked me intellectually and emotionally.
So it was just kind of a combination of being in college, growing up, reflecting on my life in a season. I'm trying to think about my future, etc. And then being rocked with these challenges in a way I had not before made me just kind of rethink everything.
Eric Huffman: Right. I get it. I think everybody that's gone off to college, every Christian kid that goes off to college experiences some level of that. It sounds like you were a very thoughtful young man, but you were confronted with something. Like you said, you weren't ready before that, and it really shook you.
I have a similar story and I won't get into it. Maybe God listeners are probably tired of hearing it. But similar, almost, I don't know... it's almost rote at this point. Of course, you go to college and you question God. That's just what you do, right? But it was existential for me at the time. It sounds like it was for you as well.
Did you feel free to go home and talk to dad about this? And if so, how did he react?
Sean McDowell: Yes, I did. But there also was some fear and ambivalence, partly because my parents created such a culture where we could talk to them about anything. Especially in the 80s, my dad was doing this Why Wait campaign, which is one of the first times the church globally dealt with sexuality. This is before True Love Waits in the 90s, which was a different organization.
And so, we'd sit at the dinner table and he'd be like, "Kids, here's this new STD," at that time it was AIDS, "and we'd talk about it." He'd be like, "Hey, here's what's going on in politics. What do you guys think?" So, I'm just comfortable talking about issues and I forget that many people are not. And so my dad would always say things like, you can talk to me, and we felt free to do that.
But at this stage, there was also a sense of like, I know that in my mind, but I'm questioning the whole thing. I mean, I'm questioning. I don't think I ever rejected it, Eric. I think I was just like, "Do I really believe this? What if I don't believe this? And so, if you had asked me, I'd say, I know my dad's going to say he loves me and he understands, but I needed to feel it in that experience.
I think it was my sophomore year, so again, 95, maybe it was 96, we were in Breckenridge, Colorado, and I just remember I was like, "Dad, can we get some coffee?" And we sat down and as best I can remember, I said something like, "Dad, I want to know what's true. I'm just not convinced Christianity is true." And he didn't hesitate at all. He looked right back at me and he's like, "Son, I think that's great." And I remember thinking like, "Did you even hear what I said?" Like I didn't expect that.
A side note, my dad had anticipated in his mind what questions or scenarios us kids might say to him. Like if I said, "Dad, I'm dropping out of school and I'm smoking pot or whatever," my sister's like, "I'm pregnant," he had thought through how he would respond wisely, which I think is just brilliant parenting. I've tried to do that in my own life. So in some ways I think he had anticipated that this would likely happen with me and my three sisters. At least one of us.
And then he said something to the effect of "Don't reject what you've learned growing up unless you think it's false. If you seek after truth, I'm confident you'll follow Jesus because it is truth. And your mom and I love you no matter what." It's funny because I needed somebody else to give me answers besides my dad, even though he's a great apologist and wrote all these books.
It's kind of like the, I don't know, Yoda, Mr. Miyagi, Gandalf, where you just need a mentor and somebody else to come along beside you. And so, for me, it was people like William Lane Craig and J.P. Moreland and their books. And I was at Biola. So, I go to J.P.'s office hours and just ask him a lot of questions and piece this back together. But I did.
You know, to bring it full circle, I asked my dad years after that, so maybe it's been a decade, I said, "Dad, what were you really thinking when I questioned truth? Like, come on." He goes, "I was confident you would believe." I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because of the depth of our relationship. You weren't angry. You weren't rebelling against anything. And I was confident that would keep you in the faith." I thought, "What an interesting response for him to have."
Now, with that said, my dad is just the glass is 99% full anyways. It's just the way he's wired. But that was our conversation as best I can remember it.
Eric Huffman: Wow. Well, there's so much there. So many nuggets packed into that little story that I hope our listeners right now and viewers are picking up on. If you're a parent, the difference maker in that exchange you had, that conversation in Breckenridge with your dad, the difference maker was your dad's forethought and preparation.
Like, if he had been caught off guard by your rounds of questioning, he could have easily been threatened in the moment by that and it could have been a very different kind of exchange that could have set you on a very different path. But he was prepared for that to be calm and cool and collected and to not just say, "That's fine, son, but it's great. It's great that you're having these doubts and asking these questions. And I'm confident if you seek the truth, you'll find Jesus and you'll follow Him."
What a powerful testament that is to discipleship, but also just to plain old fatherhood and parenting. That's a blessing. I'm sure you've felt that way your whole life.
But let's talk about what people might've expected someone like your dad to say to someone like you. Because I think the common assumption is that Christians see doubt as a real problem, like, as an enemy of faith. And you can either have faith or you can doubt, but you can't have both. What have you learned, though? What has your experience taught you about the importance of doubt?
Sean McDowell: Well, because of this experience with my dad, whenever students come up to me... and I've taught high school 21 years and I still speak to tons of students each year. And they'll just say, "I have questions and I have doubts." My most common response is, "Good for you. Way to go. Way to use the mind that God has given you. That's awesome."
And then I'll often ask some questions. When did you start having these doubts? Who have you talked with? Who have you shared with? How do they affect you spiritually and intellectually? First thing I want to just assure this young person, like my dad did to me, is that my love and care for you is not based upon whether you believe or you don't.
And second, like, okay, this is an opportunity, as painful as it is, to grow and learn and I'll be with you through this journey. That's what I want to communicate. But I also want to get to the root of it. There's a proverb that says, the purposes in a man's heart are deep, and a person of wisdom draws it out.
So often doubt is not intellectual or purely intellectual. Sometimes it's moral, it can be emotional, it can be volitional, experiential. And I just kind of want to listen and understand what's the root of this doubt. Because I spent a lot of time answering questions, Eric, that people aren't asking, because I didn't ask questions back to try to understand. And I'm sure I still do this at times today, unfortunately. But when somebody doubts, I want to lean in and just understand where did this come from and why. Now to specifically answer your question.
Faith is not the opposite of doubt. Unbelief is the opposite of faith. That's why it in Jude 22, I think it is, it says, "Have mercy on those who doubt." First off, it shows us that doubt can be painful because of what's at stake. But it doesn't say have mercy on those who are unbelievers. Those who doubt. Because you can believe something and have some doubts about it at the same time. Belief is not 100% certainty. That's such a damaging idea that makes people think, if I have any questions, therefore I'm completely a non-believer.
If you're 50-50 on something, you're agnostic. If you're 51-49, you believe it, but you're not very confident in that belief. How do we get it to 60-40 or 80-20 or 90-10, etc.? Some of my beliefs I hold with greater confidence than others. That's why in the Great Commission Matthew's like, some of them believed and some of them doubted. They believed and they doubted.
I think last point I'll make on this is, I think about this a lot, is we call Thomas a doubter. I don't think Thomas was a doubter. Thomas didn't go, "Well, I'm not sure. Maybe Jesus rose. Can you give me some evidence?" What did Thomas do? He's like, "I will not believe." He flat-out rejected. He's like, "Nope, I don't believe." That's not doubt, last time I checked.
So Thomas rejects, we call him a doubter. Therefore, somebody doubts and they're basically somebody who completely rejects the faith in our eyes. So I think we need a better moniker for Thomas. I don't know what it would be. I can't think of one that sounds better than doubting Thomas.
I said it was the last thing, but when I talked to so many people who've deconstructed, in particular, deconversion, there's just painful ways that people did not give them space to ask questions and doubt and drove them further from the faith.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. I really appreciate your approach there. I think great apologists, great Christian apologists seem to all say something similar about their work, which I've heard you and your dad say, or I've read you say that Christian apologetics, even the best Christian apologetics, doesn't result in certainty. It's not an ironclad case. Absolute certainty is not the name of the game. It's not exhaustive, is the word, I think. It's sufficient. It's enough to believe, but it's not exhaustive, case closed. If you have any doubts, then you're out. And I find that really reassuring.
Let's just put a bow on this. When you, or when our listeners and viewers right now come across someone who's deep in doubt, what's your approach? You talked about getting to the sort of point or the root issue of their doubts. What's next after you do that?
Sean McDowell: Just listen, ask questions, and try to get to the heart of what the issue is as best you can, and then address it accordingly. I mean, I've had people who have raised a bunch of apologetic issues, and distinctly, when it gets down to it, have made it very clear, I don't want to believe, because of what it demands of me about the way I have to live my life. I'm not saying that's true for everybody. That's not my point. But that's a very different conversation than are there contradictions in the Bible.
For some people, I've gotten to the root of it, and it's like there's a hurt and there's a pain at the hands of the church, and it's just impossible to separate that emotionally from what it means to be a Christian. So how do we help somebody who's hurting?
That's very different than someone who's like, I really have intellectual questions, and I need to make sense of this. And sometimes it's a few. Just find out what's going on, assure that we care about the person, we're not threatened by their questions, that there's an answer if they're willing to look, and then try to probe in at what the root of it is, and address it as best we can.
And for some people, depending on what the root of it is, it can take a long time to experience healing. Especially when there's abuse that's there sometimes, and hypocrisy that people have experienced, there can be some real depth.
And sometimes, Eric, I've gotten the point in conversation with people where I realize, I'm out of my depth, and I'm like, "I can't help you with this. I'm not a trained counselor. I think we've gotten to the heart of the issue. I need to bring somebody else in here that can help us through this journey too."
Eric Huffman: Well, from what I've seen, you are rarely out of your depth when it comes to addressing some of the doubts about the Bible and doubts about Christianity and the church that people bring. You've made a life of addressing people's doubts and having these fruitful, meaningful conversations with people, oftentimes with people who are very much opposed to what you're about and what we're about as Christians.
I've seen that on your YouTube channel. Talk about sort of how you got into the YouTube world. You're crushing it in every way. I'm sure our team, we all know what kind of work that takes, and you are prolific in putting out so much great content. What made you decide to do that?
Sean McDowell: I started throwing up content, I think, around 2010. I'd just do like a two-minute video a week, throw it on there for youth pastors. Had some subscribers like, Oh, this is worth filming 10 videos in a day and then releasing them now and then. Like I didn't put a lot of time and thought into it.
But then I started to realize, wow, I'm behind the ball here. I'm blogging rather than making YouTube videos, and this is just where culture's shifting. People want to see things visually, not just read. So I kind of had a plan to do this, but I'm not great with technology. It pushes me out of my comfort zone. I don't love new technological things. I love to say to somebody else, you figure out and do it, and I'll just show up.
What really forced my hand was COVID. When COVID hit, I was like, Okay, I've wanted to YouTube for a while." And there were months where it's like, Is speaking ever going to come back? That's a part of my passion and my ministry and my livelihood. So I thought, I've got to figure out a way to reach people. And more people were going online, so I thought now is the time.
And I just stepped out of my comfort zone, made every mistake in the book, many of them live that are embarrassing. A lot of the old videos I just got rid of them because the quality is just so below what I want up there. But I was like, I'm just going to do this, and started where I was at, had a team around me.
And just still to this day... I was thinking today, how do I improve things? So I'm constantly trying to grow and expand and improve things. But it really was kind of COVID that forced my hand to do this. Now it's one of my favorite things to do. I get more feedback from YouTube than books or speaking, because it's worldwide, people can watch it, it's free, you can take it on the go. I mean, it really is an incredible ministry platform that I enjoy.
Sometimes I just tickle myself like this. I get to talk to really interesting, fun people, and it's kind of awesome through technology that we can do this in ways we couldn't really before COVID. People just didn't have the setup in their homes. I mean, this is my office. Anyways, that's probably the story that got me on there.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, that's awesome. It's made such a difference in my life and many, many other people's lives. If you're watching or listening right now, be sure to check out Sean McDowell's YouTube channel, and you will be really inspired and excited about what you see there.
On your channel, what sets you apart is like, it's not a comfortable Christian channel. By that, I mean, it's not a place to go and just get the red meat and just sort of own the opposition. That sort of low-hanging fruit or lowest common denominator is all too common, I think, in Christian content online sometimes. And I don't see that from you.
As you said earlier, you've had your whole life, this great comfort level with addressing difficult topics and having tough conversations in a gracious way. But do you ever worry about offending the wrong people or getting canceled in this increasingly polarized climate?
Sean McDowell: First off, you did say my name correctly when you accidentally said McDowell. I was on a plane, introduced myself, a Scottish guy goes, "No, you're not Sean McDowell, it's Sean McDowell." And I was like, "Oh, he's Scottish, he must know." So you accidentally got it right.
Eric Huffman: The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Sean McDowell: Exactly. Yeah, that's the point. Sean McDowell, he corrected me. When I started my channel, I was told by people that if I'm not provocative and I don't own people and I don't react to really popular content that can become gossipy, you're not going to build a channel. And for me, I'm not speaking for anybody else, I was like, I don't think I win anything by owning somebody. That person feels humiliated. I don't know that it helps.
And I bet you there's a lot of people that are interested in civil, thoughtful conversations across worldviews. I'm going to try it. And I could grow a bigger channel if I wanted to own people. That's for sure. Fine. But I think you lose more by doing that than you gain.
I think there's a lot of people today... I mean, I have a ton of people, other faiths in the LGBTQ community, whether it's Muslims and Hindus and agnostics and progressive Christians that watch my stuff. And there's plenty of people that don't appreciate me and differ and that's fine. You're going to come across that. But I think there's a lot of people that just appreciate the honest, thoughtful conversation with people who see the world differently.
So do I worry about cancel culture? Yeah, sometimes. I'd be lying if I didn't say that. I think I've had times where people have certainly tried to cancel me and I've been piled on social media and it doesn't feel good. So that's not fun. I think Christians can make a mistake and cancel culture, either say, you know what, we'll cancel you and we'll pile on and we operate the way that the world does, or we live in fear and don't speak what we think is true because we don't want to be canceled.
So I just try to think through the guests that I have on. I try to think through the issues and say, Am I dying on the right issue? Have I done my homework here? And I don't always get it right, Eric. There's an issue I'm thinking through in my mind right now. I won't mention it. I'm like, Am I on the wrong side of this issue? And I'm going to have to make a correction on it. I don't know the answer to that, but I'm taking time to think it through. And if I come to the point where I got this one wrong, then I got to own it and move on. I think most people have grace for that.
So yeah, I think, you know, in some ways people are like, wow, it must be awesome. You almost have 300,000 subscribers. And I'm like, If you think having a big platform is going to make you happy, you have no idea. If anything, you know, the bigger your platform is, the bigger of a target you are, the more people take shots, the more people want to take you down. So I'm not in this for a numbers game. I'm not trying to win human approval.
I mean, Paul was called, what was he called? He was called a babbling fool. They called him insane. And that's because his belief in the resurrection. So if people want to insult and cancel me because of my Christian beliefs, okay, I signed up for a belief that's rooted in Jesus rising from the grave and, you know, donkeys talked in the Old Testament. Okay. But if I get canceled because I just mistreat somebody or I am dying on the wrong hill and should get feedback or criticism, then I got to deal with that. And I've made a handful of those missteps along the way and it doesn't feel good. But it comes with a par for the course.
So I guess for me, and maybe it's a longer answer, is, more than anything else... You know, something I think about a lot, Eric, is I had a chance to interview Os Guinness, just one of my favorite thinkers. And I asked him what he thought his legacy would be. And I'll never forget, Eric, he goes, "Sean, legacy is a secular idea. All that matters is God says, Well done, my good and faithful servant." That's freeing. I just want to be faithful to the opportunities God has given me rather than live in fear of cancel culture.
Eric Huffman: Amen. You know, and one thing people might be thinking right now is that we're afraid of, or we're talking about cancel culture and being canceled by the world or by secular people. But Christians have gotten the habit, especially of canceling each other. And sometimes, you know, the calls coming from inside the house and like in a horror movie or friendly fire is more and more common.
That's been troubling. And I've got a feeling that's part of the reason you wanted to write this book "End the Stalemate". What did you see happening in the world? By the way, great book. I encourage everybody to get it.
Great quote from Os Guinness that you triggered in my mind. I'd made a note about it that he really summarizes, you know, your approach to people with questions and doubts about Christianity. He said, "Our answer initially is to have no answer for the genuine answer counts only if we have genuinely listened first." And so part of the strategy we have as Christians is to listen to people's stories. And you talk a lot about that in the book. But first, before we get there, just talk about what you saw happening in the world that made you want to write a book like this.
Sean McDowell: Well, I think there's no doubt there's cancel culture inside the church and outside the church. It's on the left and it's on the right. Now we can talk about which is worse and who has more power, and that's a conversation that I'm not super interested in having. But you're right. We see it on both sides.
I was a communication major as an undergrad. So I've studied public speaking and writing and interpersonal communication and have thought a lot about how we communicate effectively. And just increasingly with social meeting online, I look at the world, I'm like, we've lost the ability to communicate well. We just have. I don't see a lot of Christians communicate in a truthful but gracious manner. Sometimes you need more truth. Sometimes you need more grace.
I'm far from getting that balance correct all the time, but I don't see a lot of Christians modeling it well. I think of people like Tim Kellers, like, man, so gracious, so pastoral, but he spoke truth. He didn't back down on that. And he's a great model of that. I think my dad always did that. I mean, he had done 200 some debates and was like, I want to demolish the arguments, but love the person I'm in conversation with.
And so part of what motivated this book is just looking around and going, we've lost the ability to have conversations with people. One study that kicks off the book is in 2016, which is, of course, the first time Trump ran against Hillary for the presidency, one-third of Americans have stopped talking to a family member or friend entirely because of a disagreement over that election, according to one study.
I mean, just think about that. We're yelling at each other on Twitter. We're ignoring each other. We don't communicate well. Things are obviously only just increasing right now with another election eight years later. Look, we need to vote. We need to speak truth. There's a time and need for a prophetic voice. I would never pull away from that. But we're also called to be peacemakers.
We're called to lean in sometimes and lower the temperature and find common ground with people and care for our neighbors in a way that actually, interestingly enough, when we have confidence in our beliefs and we listen to people and we lean in to have meaningful conversations, it speaks to kind of, I think, our Christ-like testimony and witness, because not a lot of people are doing that today. So that was a piece of it that motivated me.
Eric Huffman: Sure. Man, 2016, that study was one-third of Americans didn't just stop talking about the issues with their family member or friend. They just stopped talking to their family member or friend.
Sean McDowell: Oh, my goodness.
Eric Huffman: Which I'm laughing, but it's just wild. It's so sad. And I've got to think that number is way higher now just based on anecdotal evidence. If I'm real honest, some of my own life and relationships and how those have been impacted with people I used to be close to. It can't all be Trump, though, I guess. What else is happening in the culture and what's changing in our society that's leading to this?
Sean McDowell: There was an op-ed in the New York Times, I don't know, maybe four to six months ago. And it was arguing that... the person said, if I remember correctly, like Trump ruined my relationships, my family and friends. And I remember reading it thinking, Trump has no power to do that. He has zero power to ruin family and friend relationships, whether you love him or whether you hate him. He only has power insofar as we let him and his political views shape the way we relate with one another.
And the same is true with Biden. The same is true with Kamala Harris. The same is true with anybody. They have no power over our relationships and the way we communicate unless we let them shape the way we communicate.
And so I just partly want to push back to people and say, I get it. These are polarized times. A lot is at stake. And in some ways, our politics are trying to provoke us and make us enraged. Whether you watch MSNBC or Fox, they're all trying to do that. But we have agency in our lives of what news we watch, what conversations we have, how we respond to people who view the world differently and who have offended us.
So step one is just to realize, now, if somebody is going to end a relationship with me, I have no control over that. I can't change that. And some people might do that because of a political disagreement. But that's not Harris. That's not Trump. That is that person choosing to end the relationship because of views that they hold. So I just, in principle, want to be as gracious as I can towards others without compromising biblical truth and my conviction before the Lord and control what I can control.
Eric Huffman: And it seemed to me in reading the book, what you identified is just a breakdown of communication, whether it's because of politics or because of the rise of the internet and the polarization that comes along with that or social media, what we have is just a breakdown in basic communication skills, and it's affecting Christians as much as the rest of the world, if not more so.
But what do you see sort of happening exactly? What's missing from the conversations we are having and the communication we're trying to have with the world? What elements of healthy conversation are missing?
Sean McDowell: Well, in some ways, it's not rocket science. I think most people are willing to have meaningful spiritual or political conversations. Most people, not all people, if we do it in the right way, at the right time, and with the right attitude. Now, I could walk through each one of those that I failed at, Eric, in the wrong way, at the wrong time, and the wrong attitude. I could give you times over like the Thanksgiving meal with extended family, I'm like, hey, let's talk about this and it just went south, and I had to apologize.
Eric Huffman: It's the time and the place, man.
Sean McDowell: Even this week I just had an incident, I'm like, Oh, man, why did I bring that up? Because I'm curious, and I love talking with people, and so I let that get ahead of me and don't always use the wisdom and just have to own it. And so nobody has it perfect. I think sometimes we're just afraid to even have this conversation, so we don't say anything.
Now, there might be some people that we don't have certain conversations with. We could talk about that, but for the sake of peace and family, there might be a time where you get to a point where you just don't. But as a whole, I think most people...
I mean, I recently went to visit a Hindu temple and just sat down with a guru and gave me a tour and just got to ask him questions. I went to a mosque recently and sat down and had befriended an imam, and now he's coming to my apologetics class for an hour and a half to just answer questions. And he's willing to do this with his time. I think most people are willing to if we just literally follow the golden rule. Treat people the way they want us to treat them.
Now, what Christians can specifically do is just get better at asking questions. In the Gospels and Acts, there's 340 questions that Jesus asked. In Paul's letters, there's 262. I've been reading Genesis recently, and God starts by engaging Adam and Eve after the sin of where are they hiding? What happened? He asks them questions. So if we get better at asking questions and listening and understanding, I think it's amazing how many people would be willing to have a conversation.
Now, what happens is it's called the rule of reciprocation. If I give you a gift, you kind of feel obligated to give me a gift back. Not always, but you feel obligated. If I listen to you and really graciously try to understand, at some point, you kind of feel the obligation to ask me back. Hence, then I have an opportunity to share.
Eric Huffman: And I think sometimes the goal of the conversation is... we get that twisted too. As Christians, we think, or somehow we're programmed to think, in the evangelical world especially, that every conversation with an unbeliever, best case scenario, it ends with a win. And the win is they come to faith in Christ because I told them to, or I told them why, and they said yes. And if that doesn't happen, then I just hang my head low and feel bad about it for a while. Because we look at it like it's our one shot. It's like Eminem's song. We get one shot and that's it. And if we fail, we fail.
And what that does is, as I saw in your book, I mean, you talk a lot about this, it takes out the element of real, authentic relationship building. It just sends a message to people that they're objects to be won rather than people to be loved. Is that what you see happening, especially among Christians?
Sean McDowell: I remember back, I think it was like '08 or '09, the book "unChristian" by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons. And they were talking about how unbelievers view Christians. And one of them, I forget the wording that they use, but it's like we're just kind of non-Christians viewed Christians as them a project that we just win over rather than people that we love.
Now there's a way to love people and also want them to come to Christ. I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I'm in an ongoing conversation right now with an atheist friend of mine. I've had him on, I think maybe three times on my channel. And we're going to write a counterpoint book together.
And he's kind of like, you know, I don't know that I want you to change your belief, Sean. He's an atheist. He doesn't think eternity is at stake. And I think you're interesting and part of variety in the world. And I said, I would be lying if I didn't want you to change your beliefs. I want you to become a Christian. I really believe this stuff. But even if you don't, I value you and care about you as a friend, whether you ever believe or not.
I mean, the bottom line, when do we share the gospel? When do we not? I'm not going to remotely pretend that I have that one down. There was a video, I think a week or two ago, someone made a YouTube video, like, did Sean fail to share the gospel in this particular situation? And people were talking about it. And I thought, This is a healthy conversation we should have.
Now, oftentimes, people see a slice of something and don't know a larger conversation that's taking place and make quick judgments about it. Fine. But I'm not going to pretend I've always gotten that one right. The loving thing to do is to share the gospel with somebody. We just got to think about when and how we do it. I don't feel the need in every conversation to shift it to the gospel and try to share the four spiritual laws with somebody.
Some people criticize me for that, but I love Greg Koch's approach of putting a stone in somebody's shoe. I want to move the ball forward. Now, there's been times where I've just said, okay, do you understand what the Christian message is? Tell me what you think it is. And can I share with you what I think Jesus taught and then you tell me about it? There's a time and place to do that. But I don't personally think in every encounter we have to go there, or it can become robotic in the sense where we're just using people and they feel like, yep, playing the Jesus card, that's all you're interested in rather than me as a person.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. It makes me think of 1 Peter 3, you know, always be prepared to give an answer. But he adds the caveat to anyone who asks or whenever someone asks. I've heard you talk about that sort of being the door opening. And Paul wrote about in, gosh, I believe it's Colossians 4, like, be wise in all your conversations with unbelievers or outsiders, he said in that verse, and then make the most of every opportunity.
But until that opportunity arises, and that's... you know, not every conversation with an unbeliever is an opportunity to win them over for Christ. But once that question is asked, you know, that we always want to be ready to explain the power of the gospel and why we believe what we believe. But yeah, they're not games to be won. They're not pawns on a chessboard. These are human beings made in the image of God. And so we should want not just to win them over, but to know them and love them well.
One thing I love about your approach in the book is you talk about relationships as the most foundational component of anyone's life. When we're getting to know somebody, we want to get to know their worldview. And that's usually where we think about landing, but there's a layer beneath the worldview that shapes how we see the world and that's relationships.
That's really the deepest need that every human being has, Christian and otherwise. We all just want to be known and we want to know others and be loved and love others. And in conversations like that should be the goal, you know, in our conversations with each other and with unbelievers is to really get after that. And then the opportunity, I think the opportunities arise for more, you know, fruitful gospel sharing.
But I hear the concerns Christians raise, Christian viewers. And I think it comes from a good place, especially when we talk to people that disagree with historic Christian teaching. I've seen a lot of guests on your show, and I think, wow, Sean, I hope you're ready for the backlash because they're going to say you're platforming so-and-so. And we've had some of that on Maybe God as well. But you grow a thick skin, I guess, and you just kind of learn to give people the benefit of the doubt.
But you had one guest in particular that I had decided I despised. And I confess that. Sometimes just full disclosure, there's just people you decide it's fun to despise them. You love to hate them. That's not the spirit at all. That's just the flesh, you know. But his name was Brendan Robertson. You may remember having these conversations, several conversations actually with him. He is an out and proud, gay Christian and pastor/influencer, pretty, pretty successful in his own right.
Brendan Robertson: I would say Jesus is Lord. He is the one whom I seek to conform my life to, whose vision, teachings, and message I try to proclaim to the world and encourage others to follow as well, because I believe it leads to abundant life, redemption, and restoration of individual lives and of our world. As far as what the Lord means, we can get into that later, but that's my summary.
Eric Huffman: Why did you decide to have someone like, like him on the podcast and sort of platform his voice in that way?
Sean McDowell: Well, first thing I would say is I'm not running a church on YouTube. There's a big difference between having somebody that you put behind a pulpit and a professor having a conversation with somebody in a public platform. Now I realize some people miss that nuance, but it's true.
Second, he already has a platform. I'm not giving him any kind of platform. He's got Instagram followers. He does YouTube.
Third, as I read his stuff, there was a lot of hurt at ways that he really felt like Christians mistreated him. And so in part, I think, well, if somebody's been hurt at the church, one of the things we need to do is try to just be gracious and kind towards this individual. It undermines that objection a little bit when Christians treat them lovingly.
Third, I just want to bring clarity on some things that he said. I mean, he believes that Jesus sinned and makes an argument. And I was able to draw out, what exactly do you believe by this, pull out the passage, kind of hold his feet to the fire a little bit graciously without saying, you know, you're a heretic and yelling at him. I don't know that that's necessary. I think anybody watching was just kind of like, okay, these guys believe a very different view about Jesus being divine, Jesus being sinless.
And so I just want to bring clarity and just show that not afraid to talk with people who see the world differently. We had a great conversation. I enjoy Brandon. He's a friend. I don't know if he'll see this or not, but he's working on a book. I think he said seven or eight months that'll come out on kind of queering Christianity. I'd love to have that conversation with him.
Now I'm not going to give him a free pass. I don't think he'd want me to give him a free pass, but I just love to have a respectful conversation where we talk about what is at stake with this? Where do we differ over what the Bible says? Why do we differ over this? How does he defend his case? I mean, let's have that conversation. That's an important conversation to have.
So for those reasons, I decided to have it. You know, there's people I look at in my own life and sometimes have the same feelings that you do. And I've got to look inside myself and go, why do I feel that way? And is this something where I need to change my perspective on this person?
I don't feel that way about Brandon. I think it's obvious to anybody who watched it that we have very different beliefs about who Jesus is. So in some ways, just having clarity on someone who calls himself a progressive Christian and yet believes that Jesus sinned, that is a very, very different gospel. He thinks I'm wrong. I think he's wrong. But now we have very clear differences laid out on how we approach it. And I think the vast majority of people who saw it were like, okay, this is helpful.
And I guess the last reason is there's also a lot of people I hear from all the time who say, I have friends, people who've left my church and family members and friends who are progressive Christians or some other belief. How do I talk to them? So I'm just in part trying to model for people what such a conversation could look like and give them permission to do so.
Eric Huffman: That's exactly what I saw. And that's what I wanted to say about that conversation with Brandon is you taught me not to continue hating and despising someone I didn't even know. And it was convicting. I think that's one thing that having these conversations does is we're not just out to convict them, but we're convicted too through that, both because we realize the humanity of the person across the table. We also maybe are exposed to some of our own blind spots and our own arguments.
We realize we have some work to do to shore up what we believe in and why we believe it. And so it can be so healthy and so good for believers to engage in these kinds of conversations. So I applaud you. I thank you for that.
Now, before we run out of time, I realized, gosh, I must be having fun because the time has flown. But when it comes to conversations with Christians, other Christians with whom we disagree, I'm not talking so much about the Brandon Robertsons of the world, but folks, Christians have just gotten in this habit of just looking for code words other Christians say and tearing each other apart. Somehow, I guess, suddenly Tim Keller is posthumously a liberal heretic now, according to some Christians on Twitter, which is mind-boggling to me that we would turn on someone who brought so many to Christ in a place like New York City. And we just seem to be getting more and more to that habit of tribalism within Christianity. Specifically among Christians, how do we have better conversations with one another where we value the unity Christ prayed for us to have and instead of looking for things to tear each other up about?
Sean McDowell: That's a tough question. I think that's really the question of the hour right now that I've never seen evangelicalism in my lifetime. Now, I wasn't around in the 60s during some of the race riots and 70s with Vietnam. So this is just my lifetime. The last 48 years, I've never seen such fracturing as we have today. And we're trying to figure out, who do we criticize? Who do we find unity with? Who do we forgive? Like, how do we have conversations now in such a fractured, polarized moment?
I think there's a way to look at somebody like Tim Keller, who was not perfect. He said things at times I'm like, I cannot agree with that. I don't know where he's coming from. Push back on that firmly and say, Hey, Keller got this wrong, without disparaging the amazing contribution that he made to the faith and continues to make through his books and through his lectures. I think there's a way to do that.
My dad's not perfect. There's times where I'm like, I've disagreed with him on issues and he's made mistakes like anybody else, but man, his heart is in the right place. And he's been faithful for so long that we can't miss that in the larger conversation.
And so I guess what I'm just in favor of is more and more conversations face to face. It's a lot easier to yell at somebody on Twitter. I'm not saying don't use Twitter. I use it. I get it. I'm not saying don't use social media. But when you have these difficult conversations, looking at somebody face to face in the flesh, it just tends to make you communicate with that person differently than anonymously through social media or some other platform online.
Eric Huffman: Absolutely.
Sean McDowell: So let's speak truth, but think about the way we do it and try to focus on the essentials and not die on secondary issues. Now that raised the question, what are secondary issues? Is IVF a secondary issue? Is identifying as a gay Christian a secondary issue? Is the war in Gaza a secondary issue and how it's carried out? I can't answer that right now.
But a lot of us, before we even hear the other side and at least understand where they're coming from, start attacking and demonizing and creating more polarity. I think when we understand a person and we know them and at least know their arguments, we're likely going to communicate differently in most circumstances.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Well, especially when it comes to Christian-on-Christian conversations. I just think Jesus was pretty clear, like the world will know that he is the Son of God by seeing Christians united in love under the banner of Christ. And so disunity, obviously, we would assume has the opposite effect. I've seen that happen. I'm sure you have as well.
All right. We got one minute left before we both have a hard stop and I want to make sure our listeners and viewers have something tangible to take away. And you offered this three-step plan for conversations where issues arise that might be hot-button or controversial. And you talk about approaching an issue for clarity, with charity, and to approach it critically. Could you just walk us through that process so that we're all coming away with something to chew on?
Sean McDowell: Yeah. So the idea, I came up with three Cs when critical race theory was just all the conversation maybe three, four years ago. And I said, first off, let's understand something clearly before we criticize it. And that involves reading original sources. There's a lot of people who criticize critical race theory because somebody else told them what it meant and how to think about it. Let's read it first clearly.
Second, read it charitably. So my instinct sometimes is to read atheists or maybe the Book of Mormon looking for errors and mistakes. Like I've got to hold back and go, you know, I need to read this charitably the way I would want an atheist or a Latter-day Saint to read my stuff.
And then let's be critical. Once we have understood it clearly and charitably, then we've got to filter it through a Christian worldview and use our minds and discern what is good from what is bad. And we often skip these steps and go straight to criticism. And what that communicates to the outside world, because... you know, whether, you know, this is a big conversation, but I take big issue with critical race theory. But I also wonder why so many of my friends who are minorities feel like that conversation has been a sidetrack from real conversations of racial justice. So am I at least trying to listen and understand why people view this debate differently?
If I launch into critique, which I think critical race theory deserves, and don't take the time to understand how other some people, especially brothers and sisters in Christ see this, like, shame on me for my approach to it. So let's approach issues, whatever it is, clarity, charitably, and then we've got to approach it critically through the lens of a Christian worldview.
Eric Huffman: That's so good. All right, Sean, we're going to have in our show notes all the links for people to find your work and your YouTube channel, but I can't recommend "End the Stalemate" enough. I hope it's been selling great and that you're getting a lot of great feedback.
Sean McDowell, Sean McDowell, however, you say your name, I'm grateful for you more than you know, as are many of our listeners and viewers. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on Maybe God.
Sean McDowell: Thanks for having me on. I wish I could change voices with you. You've got the best radio voice.
Eric Huffman: I wish I could change minds with you. I'll trade you.
Sean McDowell: No, I don't know about that. Good conversation. I appreciate the prep and give and take.
Eric Huffman: Thank you.
Sean McDowell: Well done.