Is Sex Trafficking The Work of the Devil?
Inside This Episode
Human trafficking is the world’s fastest growing crime, with an estimated 27.6 million victims worldwide at any given time. The majority of those victims are women and girls. Of those who fall victim to trafficking, only one percent are rescued. What if we looked at this problem not merely as an issue of flesh and blood, but as a spiritual battle against evil itself? That’s what one Houston man, Colonel Kevin Lilly, did. Leveraging his authority and connections as the Chairman of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, he helped coordinate and carry out the most significant sex trafficking sting in Texas history. This is the first time he’s sharing the behind-the-scenes details about the cartels, the victims, and how this operation provides hope for combating sex trafficking.
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Transcript
Eric Huffman: Human trafficking is the world's fastest-growing crime, with an estimated 27.6 million victims worldwide at any given time. The majority of those victims are women and girls. Of those who fall victim to trafficking, only about 1% are rescued.
Kevin Lilly: They have no identification. They are just people that are being used as commodities. And it's horrific. You know, I don't want to sound too much like I'm preaching, but they are God's children.
Eric Huffman: What if we looked at this problem not merely as an issue of flesh and blood, but as a spiritual battle against evil itself? That's what one Houston man did, leveraging his authority and connections within government. He helped coordinate and carry out the most significant sex trafficking sting in Texas history.
This will be the first time that he's sharing a lot of these behind-the-scenes details in public today. I am so honored to welcome my friend and brother in Christ, Colonel Kevin Lilly, to the Maybe God studio. Welcome, Kevin.
Kevin Lilly: Eric, good to be here. Thanks.
Eric Huffman: Man, I know you're busy. Thank you for joining us here. It's really cool to be able to have this conversation. Let's begin with something that happened seven-plus years ago with your appointment as chairman of what's called the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission. Most people watching and listening right now probably don't know what the TABC is, but just, how did a man like you—you're not a career politician, you had a regular job, very successful in your field—how'd you become the TABC chairman?
Kevin Lilly: Sure. Well, at the time of my appointment, the TABC was an agency in crisis. We hear a lot about closing agencies, shutting them down, making them more efficient.
TABC is the third-largest state police force in Texas, and their job is to have jurisdiction over crimes that occur in and around the alcohol industry. Previously, or in the prior years, much of what we did was kind of dysfunctional police work, frankly — chasing kids with fake IDs and things like that.
There was also some corruption issues. There was misappropriation of funds. And it was just a poorly run agency. Morale was very low. And they were talking about closing it down.
So, the governor asked me, because of my prior military experience and my experience running a firm that's highly regulated, that I could deal with both the police side and regulatory side. So, we also regulate a $40 billion industry.
So, he said, "We're either going to shut it down or you're going to fix it." So, I came in and had to make some radical changes. But one of the first things that I did, as it relates to what we're discussing here today, was to realize that this particular law enforcement agency has the ability to go into any bar or restaurant or any place that sells or manufactures alcohol without a warrant.
And I said, "That is huge leverage." Why are we chasing kids with fake IDs? Certainly a problem, and we still deal with that. But why don't we go after the real crimes, the organized criminals that use bars and restaurants as storefronts for serious crimes: human trafficking, money laundering, narcotics, etc.?
So, if you go back and think about the old saloon days in Texas, everything bad went on in the bars, right? That's never changed. It's just that our emphasis has changed. And really the creation of this agency goes back to the heady days of prohibition and organized crime, which really began in the alcohol industry.
Eric Huffman: Interesting.
Kevin Lilly: Probably another topic for another conversation. If you ever know anything about Al Capone and those days of gangsters, it was all about the alcohol industry. So, that's why we were created and we sort of lost our way somewhere between 1935 and 2017.
Eric Huffman: Okay. So, you're just doing your job, you're living your normal life, one day, the governor calls, Governor Abbott, right, and he says, "I want you to do this." What sorts of benefits are waiting for you on the other side of that? Is there a salary? Is there a-
Kevin Lilly: No. No. State government in Texas is run entirely by non-paid individuals. So, literally, everything from the Department of Transportation, Department of Education, Department of Public Safety, the university regents, they're all run by commissions that are volunteers, that are selected and appointed by the governor. Sort of like cabinet members at the federal level. I had to be confirmed by the Senate. And that's how it works. You're appointed for a six-year term. I was asked by the governor to assume the position of chairman or head of the commission.
Eric Huffman: Got it. Did you hesitate when he asked you? Did you have to think about it?
Kevin Lilly: You know, look, anytime you have to go into a broken system and try to fix it, there's a lot of pain involved and difficult decisions that had to be made. Sometimes people have to lose their jobs and that's never pleasant. Also, I didn't know if we were going to be successful because we were on the shopping block.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. So, when you get into the job and... first of all, let me just ask, what did former or past chairman typically do? What was the scope of the job before you took the reins?
Kevin Lilly: You know, it's really hard to tell. I certainly don't want to throw any shade on any of my predecessors, but I just think that the timing was right with the sort of increase in cartel activities and their realization that human trafficking is, frankly, the most profitable underworld operation that there is based upon... I mean, I can sort of describe the model of how it works.
Eric Huffman: Well, first, let me just ask, did you know that going into this job?
Kevin Lilly: No.
Eric Huffman: Is it something you discovered... Like, how soon after you went into the job did you discover that it's more than just fake IDs and things we need to be addressing? There are really nefarious things going on.
Kevin Lilly: You know, I went through a process of interviewing with everybody and talking about what we can do, what our capabilities were, where the problems were, and what was the potentiality of this organization. And once I began to realize and talk with some of the law enforcement professionals who are outstanding that were in the organization, I said, Look, we really need to build this. And so, you know, we went through a slow process of going... I went to the legislature we did and got our mission officially sort of changed to focus on specifically human trafficking and organized crime as it relates to the alcohol industry.
Eric Huffman: Interesting. Did you face any pushback? I mean, that's a pretty massive shift.
Kevin Lilly: Oh, yeah. Well, sure. You know, anytime you do anything, when you get in somebody else's sandbox, they don't like it, right? And people are like, "Oh, that's not your lane." And I said, "It absolutely is our lane."
If you look at the number of complaints or instances in which trafficking victims call into the federal hotline, the three primary venues for sex trafficking are bars, restaurants, and frankly, massage parlors. We don't have any jurisdiction over there of the last one, but we certainly do on the first two. So, it's going on there. We have unique capabilities and powers. So, let's execute those powers not to bother and harass good operating businesses, which frankly, was kind of our reputation as well.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. I mean, you know, going in and threatening to remove their license if they're not cooperative. I said, "Look, 95% of these business owners are great, solid, hardworking men and women that have businesses that are often family businesses." I said, "Why are we dealing with them? Let's focus on the 5%." So, let's triage this.
We basically allowed them to self-regulate. If you're a good actor, we're not going to bother you, but we're going to focus all of our time and attention on the bad actors.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. And you mentioned earlier the cartels' influence. Now, for people that might not be as familiar with their role in border states like Texas, how influential are they in the bars and cantinas that we have across the state?
Kevin Lilly: Hugely. This particular operation, we targeted nine cartel-run bars in Houston that we'd been covering along with our partners in the FBI, Homeland Security, State Department. We have the largest human trafficking task force in the state because of the nature of our jurisdiction. So, we have 65 very brave undercover agents who go deep.
As you can imagine, it's incredibly dangerous. You talk about having a low heartbeat. When you're sitting there in a cartel-run bar, and you're a law enforcement agent, obviously bad things happen if they find out. I have so much respect for my men and women in our agency that do this. And they have to go deep. They have to sort of assume different identities, which I think, as you can imagine, there's all sorts of post-traumatic stress. There's mental issues about living two different lives. Sometimes only their families know what they really do.
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Kevin Lilly: So, they have aliases. They have different jobs, fake jobs, cover jobs, truck drivers, oil field workers, what have you.
Eric Huffman: Sure. As we talk through this, it just sounds like this was just the natural course of events. But every step you took along this journey came with its own weight and added responsibility for you, whereas you could have just done the job like others had done it and probably skim the surface and just whatever.
But this decision to go after traffickers and cartel families and their institutions here, their establishments, that's a serious shift. And it brings potential consequences onto you and your people in the TABC. Were you propelled by something more than just practical...? I know you're a man of faith. Did your faith play a part in your desire to go after this particular?
Kevin Lilly: Oh, yeah, absolutely. My father was a police officer. So, it ran in the family. So, military and law enforcement really were our family businesses. I grew up in and around law enforcement officers, and I have great respect for them. Military personnel. You know, the more you dig into this, Eric, the darker it gets. And it just seemed that this was the right thing to do.
The process worked. We went before the Sunset Commission, which, one great thing about Texas government is that every 10 years, every agency in the state basically has to justify their existence. And if you're not, they'll catch you.
So I had to sit before the Sunset Commission and basically not only justify my existence, but also say, we want to increase our role. We don't want to just be what we've been doing. If you're going to allow us to continue as an agency, we have to be able to prove to the people of Texas, the taxpayers, that we're doing something constructive.
You know, look, law enforcement is under siege. I get it. I understand. It's hard to recruit young men and women who want to get into this business, and we desperately need them. And I say this all the time. I've said it on the record many times. I've said, look, I'm a man of faith, and I believe that we will all be one day held accountable for what we do on this earth. And there is no greater service than to serve and protect and to protect the weak and individuals who cannot protect themselves, who are underrepresented.
And so many of the victims, you know, frankly, most of them are people that are overlooked in society. They're faceless. They have no identification. They are just people that are being used as commodities. And it's horrific. Look, I don't want to sound too much like I'm preaching, but they are God's children. And I believe that He is absolutely with us.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. So you felt an added responsibility there.
Kevin Lilly: No. We've talked about this, you know, in the past. It is a major issue. And it's such an enormous problem.
Eric Huffman: How big a problem is it really? You mentioned 5% of the bars are the ones you wanted to focus on. Is that the number? Is it...?
Kevin Lilly: Well, let's look at absolute numbers of individuals. Clearly, these numbers are... you know, you can't really fact-check them because they are estimates. But the University of Texas did a study and through their estimate, they believe that there were 300,000 people being trafficked in Texas at the time of the study. And this was before sort of the migrant crisis began, including 80,000 children. So sort of get your arms around that 80,000 children.
Eric Huffman: Just in Texas?
Kevin Lilly: Just in Texas. Being trafficked. So obviously we're a large state. That number is certainly greater than that now. And it's now spread throughout the country. And so once the cartels realized the incredible profitability behind trafficking, really sort of profit that is different than any other crime.
Eric Huffman: How?
Kevin Lilly: Well, it's simple. We all know about supply chains, right?
Eric Huffman: Right.
Kevin Lilly: Everybody was complaining about lack of supply chains during COVID. A narcotic is a perishable commodity. You can use it once and then it has to be replaced. It has to be manufactured, it has to be distributed, and it has to be sold.
So the chain has to begin anew every time product is used and replaced. And there's inherent risk that that chain can be disrupted. There can be arrests, there could be busts, there could be a number of things that could happen to disrupt that supply chain.
With human beings, which, you know, I have to sort of put the disclaimer that this can be pretty graphic and very difficult to listen to. So those of you who are listening, I'm not going to hold back. But a human being can be used over and over again. So it's a perpetual commodity. Sometimes these girls were being used and abused 30 times a day. Think about that over and over again.
And then this is where we get into the politics. I don't want to go there and I've said it publicly, I don't want to go to that. This is not a Republican or Democrat problem. But when you have no control over the border and the cartels control every human being that steps across the border, any federal official will say that, any political party member will acknowledge they have complete control of the border.
So when an individual comes across the border, they have to pay the cartels a toll. That toll is very large, sometimes $10,000, $20,000, $25,000, which these people obviously don't have anything close to that. So they say, fine, you can work it off. And they become [inaudible 00:14:47] servants. If they're men, they will go into illegal labor. And if you have a 15-year-old daughter, she will be taken and she will be supposedly put into some job. But that job generally is sex trafficking.
And so when we have provided the cartels with this perpetual inventory of human beings that have been coming across the border, all with their influence, the numbers of those that are beholden to them. And we just saw a small glimpse of it three weeks ago when we conducted our operation. So we are providing them the inventory that they need and they're more than willing to continue to push human beings across the border if we will do nothing to stop it. So it's really a humanitarian issue.
And I'd say that, look, they come over expecting the American dream only to experience the American nightmare. I talked to an FBI agent who used the term Sophie's Choice. So people listening to this podcast may remember a Meryl Streep film that was done, I think, in the 80s or 90s about, ultimately, without being a spoiler, it was a woman who had to choose between two children, one of which was going to live and the other was going to die in Auschwitz.
And he looked at me and he said, "All these families have to experience Sophie's Choice." Because if you have a family of five and you have a daughter and they say, "We want your daughter. She'll work in a bar. She'll be a waitress," even though you know what's going to happen to her, you have to decide, am I going to hope that someone rescues her? But if I say no, they're going to kill my entire family. So I have to choose an incredibly horrific choice. I mean, imagine you... you have a daughter.
Eric Huffman: I can't imagine it. I can't imagine it. And none of us can really.
Kevin Lilly: And living with that horror the rest of their life and often never seeing them again.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. And that's such a common story on the border. And what you're saying is... I mean, it's in no small part due to the supposedly compassionate idea that an open border is more compassionate than a controlled one.
Kevin Lilly: And it's just the opposite.
Eric Huffman: It's just the opposite, right, in terms of how things play out. But other than the border when people are trying to cross, where do they get access to these families, these girls in particular? How do they get so many?
Kevin Lilly: Well, you've seen the migrant trains, they all come across and they're basically... they have a sophisticated system of ferrying people across. Some are used as coyotes. Some are used to carry drugs. They create deception or some of them that just say, "Go across. You've got to pay us. We're going to make sure you get across and turn yourself in and we'll meet you on the other side because you owe us money and you owe us a lot of money."
The treatment of these girls has been horrific. Again, this is very difficult to hear. I mean, can I sort of-
Eric Huffman: You've given the disclaimer. Anybody watching, if you-
Kevin Lilly: Turn it off at this point. So in my other capacity with the Texas military department, we've done search and recovery missions in South Texas where we've found rape trees, which I'm not sure you've heard of those.
Eric Huffman: I have, unfortunately.
Kevin Lilly: In which they basically rape the girls and then they take articles of their clothing and they hang them on trees like ornaments. So we've seen them, we've seen them through South Texas. So these individuals are... they are the personification of evil. And it's happening right here in Houston and everywhere in the United States.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. You got an up-close glimpse of it through the intel you were getting from some of your agents, undercover agents that were going into these places. What kinds of stories would they come back telling you about what was going on on the insides of these places?
Kevin Lilly: Well, first of all, this was a process where a federal agency had been looking at this particular cartel family who's kind of stock and trade as human trafficking. Again, not to be graphic, but the customers want different varieties. Some individuals want girls from Mexico. Some want girls from other Latin American countries.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: So they provide whichever you need. Some cartels focus on basically finding Mexican girls from rural, impoverished parts of Mexico, and then they bring them across. And some of them are sort of duped into this. Some of them are... you know, human trafficking is such a multifaceted crime that there are different ways. Some of them are groomed. Some of them promise things. Some of them are threatened. You know, we're going to kill your family if you don't do this. You're only going to have to do it for a short time, which is obviously long.
So the way these operations worked, which is amazing to think about, to the naked eye or to the casual observer, they just look like a nightclub. They have a bar, they have pool tables, dance floor, DJ. But behind there there is a labyrinth of rooms, what we call in law enforcement sex dates take place.
So individuals will come in and they will first be generally drink solicited. So there's a term called fichera, which is a slang for bottle cap girls. And so these girls basically will sort of sit down with a patron. And if he buys a beer from her, it's three times the price and she gets a piece of the action. At the same time, she's sort of screening him to see if he's undercover to see, you know, what his intentions are.
Then once sort of passes muster, then they go into another part of the bar that has generally a cartel member there. These are soldiers. These are not senior officers within the family. They're just sort of capos from the old mafia days. Right?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Kevin Lilly: Then they'll go into that room and then there's someone else that sort of eyes them and kind of sizes them up. And then they pay a fee based upon the number of minutes they want to be with the girl. Then they go back into a series of rooms, which are little dungeons. They are windowless. They have cement floors, soiled mattresses, condoms everywhere, bear bulb. And these girls operate in these literal hell holes from four in the afternoon until two in the morning, one after another.
Eric Huffman: Every day?
Kevin Lilly: Every day.
Eric Huffman: How old are these girls?
Kevin Lilly: Well, none of them, of course, had any documents, so we can't tell. Of course, they all say that they're 18, but...
Eric Huffman: They didn't have IDs or anything?
Kevin Lilly: They had nothing.
Eric Huffman: The cartels take their...
Kevin Lilly: They take their identification. And it gets worse. So you go through and you see these different rooms and you're given a certain amount of time to be with the girl. And then when you're done, the next guy comes through and the next guy comes through and the next guy comes through. So this kind of goes on. The most I'd heard was a girl who had 50 sex dates in one day.
Eric Huffman: Geez.
Kevin Lilly: So then what happens? Well, they, of course, try to use birth control or protection through condoms, prophylactics, but they don't always work. Sometimes the girls get pregnant. So then that gives them even more leverage over the girls because they take the children and they have essentially what we call cartel daycares. And so they take the kids and if the girls misbehave or don't cooperate, or orphanages, where they are kind of raised in this system.
So there are cities, towns in Mexico, whereas the oil industry is central to Houston's economic base, human trafficking is central to these towns' economic basis. Everybody in town's involved. And so the boys, if they're taken in at a young age, are trained to be soldiers within the cartel. If they're girls, they may be forced married into the family.
We had a situation where a woman had been held in sexual slavery, because that is what it is, from the age of 13 to 30. And she had a child and at six months old, she missed a day of work. And when she came in, the bottom, that's the female enforcer-
Eric Huffman: They call her the bottom bitch?
Kevin Lilly: Bottom bitch. That's right. She's usually been trafficked herself, but she's now in charge. She beats the girls. And she came to all the girls and said, "This young lady missed work, and her child's gone." So they took her six-month-old child, sent the child to Mexico, and she did not see that baby for 10 more years until we were able to, along with the help of the FBI, extract the child from Mexico.
Eric Huffman: How?
Kevin Lilly: Money.
Eric Huffman: They just wanted money for them?
Kevin Lilly: Mm-hmm.
Eric Huffman: Can I ask how much money they wanted?
Kevin Lilly: $500.
Eric Huffman: That's all?
Kevin Lilly: That was it.
Eric Huffman: Who pays that money?
Kevin Lilly: We actually did.
Eric Huffman: Who's we? TABC?
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. Yeah. We did.
Eric Huffman: So you paid the money to the cartel to free the boy and reunite him with...?
Kevin Lilly: Right. We have funds that we can use to do things like that. But-
Eric Huffman: So this mother missed one day of work and as punishment-
Kevin Lilly: They took her child.
Eric Huffman: They took her baby away.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. Right.
Eric Huffman: And sent him back across the border?
Kevin Lilly: Right.
Eric Huffman: Wow. This is one of the girls I presume was freed in the operation we'll talk about.
Kevin Lilly: We got her earlier.
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Kevin Lilly: She was not part of this particular operation.
Eric Huffman: Let me back up just a second, because I think I got hung up on something I'm guessing people watching might have as well. When you describe what the Johns do and go through to get to the girls and what they do when they're there, I kept thinking about your undercover guys. How much do they have to play along? To what extent do they have to...?
Kevin Lilly: I can't really go into that because their techniques are... They don't break any laws.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: I can tell you that. They are allowed to consume alcohol. They cannot take drugs. And they obviously can't participate actively in a sex act. But there are ways in which they are able to provide surveillance, take photographs, and get enough information, not only for us to understand the layout of the bar inside, but also to provide enough probable cause and evidence so that we can successfully get warrants for arrests. We don't need a warrant again to go in.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: But there are certain situations where we need arrest warrants. So we want to have as much evidence that we can use. Because the arrest is just the first part. Then we have to prosecute.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. Right?
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Kevin Lilly: And part of what we want to try to do is rescue these girls, right? Get them out of harm's way as soon as possible.
Eric Huffman: Right.
Kevin Lilly: And then close the venues. So we shut down the bars, usually through emergency orders. And in the process, also arrest whomever we can. So if we can arrest the bottoms, that's usually a good thing because that relaxes the girls.
Eric Huffman: Because they're terrified of her.
Kevin Lilly: Because they're terrified of her and they'll be more cooperative generally down the road, which is actually... the cooperation or it's called outcry is what we need to convict for aggravated prostitution or human trafficking.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Does every establishment, does every cantina have its own bottom?
Kevin Lilly: Sure. Absolutely.
Eric Huffman: She's in charge of that? That's her jurisdiction?
Kevin Lilly: Yeah.
Eric Huffman: Okay. How many of these are there? I interrupted you earlier. You said there are tens of thousands of victims, but how many of these cantinas or things like these that you know of are in the state of Texas more or less?
Kevin Lilly: You'd have to kind of extrapolate the numbers. But if you think about Houston alone, there are 12,000 bars in Houston. So it's a numbers game, right? There's not that many law enforcement officers to go to every one. Certainly, like I said, 95% of them are your Chili's down the road or the local restaurant where you like to go or sports bars and things like that. They're very legitimate. But so it's very difficult to know how many. But we have closed and arrested owners of sports bars, obviously sexually-oriented businesses, AKA strip clubs. That's a major source of problems. We've closed those as well, where we've done human trafficking stings on individual establishments. But this is the first time that we've ever hit nine simultaneously and all nine that were basically tied to one particular cartel.
Eric Huffman: Okay. And that's what happened three or so weeks ago here in Houston?
Kevin Lilly: That's right.
Eric Huffman: That's the largest sex trafficking sting that's ever happened in the state and most successful in terms of arrests and things like that. Tell me about the inception of that plan. How long ago did it first begin to materialize?
Kevin Lilly: Well, as I said, a few years ago, a federal agency had been tracking this particular cartel and tying their operations to bars. But cartels are shadow warriors. They live in the shadows. They don't want attention. They want to operate under the radar as much as possible. So it was difficult to sort of figure out exactly where they were. As often with federal agencies that go through different leadership changes, it took a while.
Finally, they came to us two years ago and said, "Look, you guys should take this over. This is really your lane. You know this. You've got the people, you've got the manpower in Texas to do it." So we took it over and then we started to do our own analysis. And then once you kind of figure out... you're fishing in a big ocean.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: Once we started to kind of pinpoint where these particular establishments were located, then we had to start building cases.
Eric Huffman: Legal cases.
Kevin Lilly: Legal cases. Then we had to go in and start doing the deep undercover work.
Eric Huffman: Right.
Kevin Lilly: And, you know, look, I've talked to these undercover guys and they're remarkable. They are the bravest of the brave.
Eric Huffman: I can't imagine. I mean, as tight a noose as the cartel has on these places and as sensitive as they are to any kind of infiltration from the outside, finding ways to thread that needle without blowing your cover, I don't think I've got that in me. I have nothing but respect for those guys. Because even the girls on the inside, the victims would probably out them for being feds or whatever, for being agents, if they knew. And so you've got to find a way to fool everybody.
Kevin Lilly: Right.
Eric Huffman: Without breaking any laws in the process.
Kevin Lilly: Exactly.
Eric Huffman: I can't imagine it, man.
Kevin Lilly: Very difficult.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. So how many establishments in Houston? I know you ended up taking down nine. We'll talk about that in a minute. But how many did you initially target?
Kevin Lilly: We targeted, I think, 11, but we only had enough evidence to go after nine.
Eric Huffman: Okay. So what legal loopholes or... not loopholes, but what legal hoops did you have to jump through to get from, you know, all this evidence you've got to the actual operation?
Kevin Lilly: Well, the first thing you need to get is support from the district attorney that will be willing to prosecute and be willing to prepare the warrants. And then you have to get a judge that would be willing to sign the warrants. That can be problematic in Harris County, Texas.
Eric Huffman: And most counties, probably urban counties, especially. I mean, I can imagine.
Kevin Lilly: I mean, we've had some very difficult situations with some less-than-cooperative judges who just refuse to cooperate with us.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Kevin Lilly: And it's amazing to me. I can't even fathom that somebody that is elected to be a judge in which hard evidence is provided would deny signing a warrant. And that happened.
Eric Huffman: Did it?
Kevin Lilly: That happened.
Eric Huffman: So you almost lost the whole thing?
Kevin Lilly: Almost lost it literally at the goal line. And we had to find another judge who was more than willing to be cooperative and sign. And had we not found that cooperative judge, the whole thing couldn't have happened.
Eric Huffman: Dang. So given the preponderance of evidence that you had, like, what possible justification could there be?
Kevin Lilly: I have no clue.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Kevin Lilly: Just sort of ignored us. Said, "You don't have probable cause," I think.
Eric Huffman: Geez.
Kevin Lilly: I think we've got tons of probable cause here.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. But use your imagination. What could it possibly be that would compel a judge to shut down?
Kevin Lilly: I mean, I have some ideas, but I'd rather not share them here as to what is the motivation. Some people just hate law enforcement. They think it's... I don't understand it.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Since I moved to Houston and saw not just the cantinas, I didn't really know what was going on in these cantinas before your operation, but the number of massage parlors that are clearly not on the up and up. And just seeing law enforcement drive by them every day and never do anything, it's been so frustrating. But I think there's a number of factors that go into that, including these legal loopholes... or these legal hoops and judges.
Kevin Lilly: Well, here's the other thing. So there's a difference. Prostitution is a misdemeanor. So just because somebody is participating in prostitution does not make them trafficked. I do believe when people say, well, prostitution should be legal, look, no, no girl at 12 years old decides, Wow, I want to grow up to be a prostitute. They're all women that are, and men, in desperate situations, but not all of them are forced. Right? Some of them are just in desperate financial straits. It's been like that for throughout history.
So trying to discern what is a trafficking case versus a prostitution case can be very difficult. And frankly, again, a prostitution is a misdemeanor. So it's trying to decide where you're going to spend your time. And are you going to have impact or are you going to swat the wasp or are you going to go after the nest?
I think sometimes in law enforcement, we pat ourselves on the back because we make some arrests, and still... I'm not satisfied. I said, we were chipping away at an iceberg with a pick. That's the way I feel sometimes. And while to those almost hundred girls that we rescued, obviously it's changed their lives.
Eric Huffman: You got to start somewhere.
Kevin Lilly: But you got to start somewhere. As far as magnitude, we did not arrest Johns. That was not our intent.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Let's talk about this operation and get after it. This is really what I wanted to talk to you about. Three Fridays ago, Friday afternoon, you called me — I'm sweeping my driveway or something mundane — and you tell me to pray that something big is about to happen. You can't talk about it, but it's huge and dangerous. And just asked me to pray.
I remember praying for something that I didn't even know what to pray for, but just safety of all involved and a successful mission. What was that day like for you?
Kevin Lilly: In some ways, it was surreal. We gathered 200 law enforcement officers. There were 65 of my agents plus tremendous support from Harris County Sheriff's Department, some of their SWAT-type operations, as well as Houston Police Department, FBI, Homeland Security, State Department.
We had NGOs, the non-government organizations, the YMCA, others that had victim services representatives. We have our own victim services representatives that are women who will immediately, once the operation is established, will go in and meet with the girls and right away try to... And so there were over 200 people in one room. And we broke into 10 teams of 20, one in reserve, and the operation took place at a specific time. It had to be simultaneous because of the connection.
And these bars were... you've seen them. If you saw it on the news, they showed the location. They were all over North Houston. Literally, some of them were 40 minutes away from each other with traffic. So we had to get 200 heavily armed law enforcement agents and officers all throughout Houston to hit precisely at the same time.
So this is where the God thing comes in and it's remarkable to me. The precision that had to happen and the danger of the operation, not just danger to our officers and agents, but dangers to the girls, collateral damage, gunfire, shootouts. You have 200 heavily armed individuals going into nine different bars-
Eric Huffman: Where there's also heavily armed.
Kevin Lilly: Where there's also heavily armed individuals, sure. We knew, especially there were two of them where we were considered high risk and we knew there were armed individuals, but they all have a communication network. They also have an internal communication network. So if we hit one early, then...
Eric Huffman: They light the torches.
Kevin Lilly: They light the torches on the cliff and everybody knows that the bad guys are coming in. So we met, I spoke to everybody. I asked the Houston Police Department chaplain to pray over everyone for their protection and for God to be with this mission. And I said, "Look, I don't apologize." I said, "I'm not trying to change anybody. I'm not trying to preach. I'm not trying to evangelize, but I'm a man of faith and I believe we are bringing the cup of God's wrath down on these people today."
And I said, "One day you guys will be judged for what you've done, and you're participating in a historic mission." And just the gratitude. I went, shook all 200 of their hands and then they all took off. And-
Eric Huffman: To their staging points or whatever?
Kevin Lilly: We synchronized our watches and said, All right, this is a military operation. And they went to staging areas throughout the city. We had the Houston Fire Department, have ambulances staged throughout the city.
Eric Huffman: Just in case.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. When people are critical of police operations, the variability of outcome can be huge. And so many operations fail. We've just had one in Houston. It was kind of a horrific situation.
Eric Huffman: Harding Street.
Kevin Lilly: At Harding Street that resulted in a police officer who's now been convicted of murder in the situation. It was poorly handled. The warrants were not right. Everything could go wrong. And then gunfire erupted and some innocent people were killed. And there were people that did not want us to do this.
Eric Huffman: For that reason?
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. I mean, they said, Look, this is too... especially now in Houston, after the Harding Street incident, which most people don't know about, but it was an unfortunate mission that failed. Everybody's very sensitive to that. I mean, that's what I was asking you to pray for.
Eric Huffman: And, you know, it would have just taken one of those 200 plus people, probably closer to 300, if you consider all the fire department guys and the volunteers you had staged. I mean, that was one person to make a call and provide intel to the, you know, probably for some payout to provide intel to the cartels.
Kevin Lilly: Or to pull a trigger.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, that's right.
Kevin Lilly: And then you have a lot of casualties and a lot of problems. When you do these things, there is a risk of failure and failure comes with consequences.
Eric Huffman: For you and others?
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. My chief looked at me and he said, "You know, if this thing had gone bad, it had gone bad for you personally."
Eric Huffman: You never would have lived it down.
Kevin Lilly: Well, and yeah, I mean, investigations and...
Eric Huffman: So, how did it go? Tell me. As the clock struck, what was it, five or something that you did this?
Kevin Lilly: We did it at 5.30.
Eric Huffman: 5.30.
Kevin Lilly: Friday. With traffic. In Houston, Texas.
Eric Huffman: If you're not from Houston, that's the worst time to be going anywhere.
Kevin Lilly: Right. So, we're getting these literal caravans of unmarked and marked police cars trying to stage in locations. They also have surveillance cameras. So, they see you coming. So, it had to be amazingly coordinated. And sort of swarm into the place at a given time.
Eric Huffman: How'd that go down? Did they swarm the building?
Kevin Lilly: It was at about 5:15, we kind of put out all calls to everyone, okay, 15 minutes to go, and 10 minutes, and then 5. And I'm sitting in the command post, which is full of computer screens and intel individuals, our criminal intelligence teams that will ultimately take and do forensic analysis on whatever we get, cell phones, weapons.
Eric Huffman: Probably some lawyers too, I would imagine.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. We did have lawyers. Yeah. We actually had an orthodox Jew there. And I came up to him when we were talking, and I said, "I'm really glad that you're here because..." I knew that he was orthodox.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. It was Shabbat.
Kevin Lilly: And I said, "I really appreciate your presence. And I appreciate it not just because you're a lawyer for me, for us." He was one of our, on our legal team at the agency. But I said, "You understand faith?" And I said, "This is kind of God's wrath." And he said, "I agree." He said, "That's why I'm proud to be part of this." He was very strong in his faith.
Eric Huffman: Wow.
Kevin Lilly: We had a good moment together. I just saw him again yesterday, and we kind of talked about it. At go time, we said, Execute. I think I told you, it was sort of like you're in a maternity ward, or watching one of the Apollo missions go on the dark side of the moon, because it's just quiet, because they're busy. They're not calling and going, "Hey, you know, this is-
Eric Huffman: Right. For how long?
Kevin Lilly: It seemed like an eternity.
Eric Huffman: I bet. I bet.
Kevin Lilly: And then all of a sudden, about 15 minutes later, we start getting checks. Location one secured, location two secured, location three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. And I'm like, Okay, great. And then I was worried we weren't going to rescue any girls, right? All of a sudden, we got 20 at this location, we got 20 at this. I thought maybe we'd rescue 15 or 20 total. And it just kept coming in, coming in. And then we made some arrests, which is always kind of a bonus, because people were... one of the criticisms was, well, you didn't arrest enough people. I go, Well, look, there's not a cartel guy sitting there in a lawn chair-
Eric Huffman: With the name tag on.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah, with "Hey, arrest me. I'm a member of the cartel family." If they happened to be there, we had facial recognition data so that we knew who to look for, because we segregated... when we went in, so in that 15 minutes, surprised them.
Here's the other thing about the prayer. There were armed guys on the inside, and they handed their weapons over without any resistance.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Kevin Lilly: Yep.
Eric Huffman: Not a shot fired?
Kevin Lilly: Not a shot fired.
Eric Huffman: In any of the locations?
Kevin Lilly: In any of the locations.
Eric Huffman: What are the chances of that?
Kevin Lilly: Not very high. I mean, yeah, doesn't happen.
Eric Huffman: Wow. And speaking of arrests, were some of the arrests big fish that you were looking for?
Kevin Lilly: Well, I can't really go into that. And the way this kind of works is that these arrests come in at various times, because again, we know we had a lot of arrest warrants, but not everybody that we had warrants for were at the location. Some were. And we did get some individuals that were big fish, but we're going to continue to collect evidence.
Eric Huffman: So it's ongoing.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. It could be going on for months before we finally get everybody that we want.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. And what happened to the bottoms?
Kevin Lilly: We arrested them first.
Eric Huffman: Okay. Are they locked up somewhere now?
Kevin Lilly: Mm-hmm.
Eric Huffman: Okay. And I guess they could claim victim status too, right? Rightfully so, if they've been trafficked as well. So it's tricky.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. So the reason why we had the FBI provide us linguists, because we didn't know what language these girls spoke. We suspected that they were predominantly from Latin America, but we didn't know. They could have been from Pakistan. So we had to have the FBI linguist team there.
And then the state department was there because we will help these women, not just give them shelter and protection, but we'll also basically allow them... if they testify, we'll basically say, we will help you stay in this country legally.
Eric Huffman: Oh, wow.
Kevin Lilly: "Look, you're going to help us do something. You've been victimized. You've essentially been tortured. This is the least we can do as a nation out of gratitude for helping us."
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: yeah, I mean, oftentimes, and I can't get specific here, but oftentimes the bottoms are the first ones to talk.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Kevin Lilly: Yeah. Because they go, Look... I mean, none of them want to do this. None of them want to... Look, if they don't beat the girl... it's a productivity process, right? If the girls aren't producing, then the bottom gets blamed. Why are your girls not... what's going on here? They're not showing up for work and then they'll get beat.
Eric Huffman: That's right. Or worse.
Kevin Lilly: And the Capos and everybody. Because it's a business. The motivation at the top is money, but the process of motivation is through violence and threats and death and torture. So if you are not cooperative, the consequences are severe. Then think about just the traumatized person and the Stockholm syndrome, where they feel attraction to their capture.
Eric Huffman: Yeah, you hear about that.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah.
Eric Huffman: So of the 80... was it 80 girls?
Kevin Lilly: 84.
Eric Huffman: 84 girls that were freed from their slavery, their sex slavery, how many of them were, or have been cooperative?
Kevin Lilly: Can't tell you. That's a process as well.
Eric Huffman: Sure. I understand.
Kevin Lilly: First of all, they didn't know this was happening. They went in for another day of horrific work and all of a sudden lights, guys with guns, lots of chaos. It's incredibly important that the victim services people are there immediately. So as soon as we separate the men from the women, then we look through and we try to find who some the felony warrants are. And then we kind of keep everybody there. We question them. If we have to make additional arrests, we will, but we immediately segregate the girls.
And then once it's secured and safe and people are handcuffed and whatnot, then we bring in the victim services team and they were... they all wore pink to designate them. And they began talking, doing interviews and they interview one after another, after another, after another. And it went on until two in the morning.
Eric Huffman: And you still don't know the age ranges of the girls that were rescued?
Kevin Lilly: I'm sure some were under 18.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Okay.
Kevin Lilly: You know, the other thing that I mentioned was, you know, this was not a pretty woman kind of scenario, right? These girls were not provocatively dressed. They weren't trying to entice street hustlers to pick them up. They were like our daughters. They were in blue jeans and t-shirts. Their job is not to entice their job is to provide a service because the men go to the bar knowing what it really is. And these were houses of ill repute disguised as bars.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: Now you could certainly go in there and have a beer and not participate, but their primary mission, if you look at the complexity of the infrastructure built around the bar in the hidden rooms, the trap doors, beds that would come out of walls. There was even a sex room behind one of the DJ booths. Wow. And if you walked in, you would think nothing looks unusual.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned the cartel daycares earlier, were those on premises?
Kevin Lilly: No. And the girls don't live on premises.
Eric Huffman: Where do they live?
Kevin Lilly: They generally live in some sort of apartment complex. One of the things is obviously to try to... you know, that's part of the undercover operation. Where are they coming from? Right. And the cartels will, by holding them captive, by taking their identification, taking their car keys, some of them do drive. I'm not sure they drive legally, but they have automobiles. So they will do everything they can to hold them captive.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: If they leave, they can't get very far.
Eric Huffman: I think that's why it's so important that people watching right now understand that. I think one of the reasons law enforcement comes under fire in public eye is that people just think that you're out to get everybody and round them up and treat them all like criminals. But these girls, you didn't approach like they're criminals.
Kevin Lilly: Never.
Eric Huffman: You approach them with-
Kevin Lilly: Technically they have committed a crime. Prostitution is a crime.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: But we haven't dealt with, with these girls as criminals since I've been on the agency. They are not in my... while they may have committed a crime by the letter of the law, they will never be charged with a crime unless they're a bottom.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Having brutalized the others. I think that the compassion of that is so important. That's part of this process is that as a country, as our law enforcement agencies, there's an element of compassion to the extent that, you know, they're even offered a safe haven and an opportunity to stay here, which, you know, is, like you said, the least you can do for somebody that's been through something so horrific. But I think that's an important caveat to this whole story.
That night, did you leave the command center and go to...?
Kevin Lilly: Absolutely.
Eric Huffman: What was that like?
Kevin Lilly: Well, I walked through the rooms and it was-
Eric Huffman: You saw it with your own eyes?
Kevin Lilly: It was chilling.
Eric Huffman: Really?
Kevin Lilly: I mean, it's the most horrific sort of bad horror movie that you've ever seen to think when you walk into these rooms that are literally not much bigger than this table, just enough for a mattress. Dirty. It was like a dungeon. I said they were a house of horrors. And to sit there and walk through them. I said, "I want to see it." Once everything was secure, the command team, and we went to five of the nine and I said, I want to see them. And I walked through them and... and I saw the girls. I saw the girls and I sat there and I looked at them and they wouldn't make eye contact and I could just feel, you know, their pain, their shame. I felt incredibly sad for them.
And just to think their lives will never be the same. No matter how much counseling we provide these girls to essentially be raped 30 times a day, six days a week or whatever, to be dehumanized, to be treated as literally as just as a commodity, as meat, disposable-
Eric Huffman: Day in and day out, whatever.
Kevin Lilly: How can they have a normal life? There's a camp in, in Austin, I can't remember the name of it, but there's a camp in Austin that is specifically designed for victims of human trafficking under the age of 17. To try to, at that young age, hopefully get through to them and give them some semblance of normality.
Eric Huffman: Well, as a pastor, as a church, like we've tried and tried to have some influence in the anti-trafficking efforts here in Houston and it's been the most frustrating thing because it just seems like breakthroughs are so few and far between. And this is such a hopeful moment, this operation and how it came together and how it was executed is such a... it's a beacon of light right now for so many of us that I hope everybody looks to and goes, this is possible. There's something that can be done about this problem that seemed insurmountable.
Kevin Lilly: But it's going to take a mindset change. So part of what I hope that as graphic as some of the descriptions I've provided have been, it has to be a mindset change within the community. Because right now, you know, law enforcement does not... just because of personnel, typically a law enforcement agency does not have a huge human trafficking task force within it because they have so many other crimes that they have to deal with. And that's the cartel's advantage because none of this is getting on the front page. Nobody's getting their head cut off. Nobody's being robbed, being mugged. It's not explosive kind of crime that gets on the front page of the paper. It operates in the shadows. They're very careful about it.
They know what they're doing. They're well-lawyered, they're well-funded, they're sophisticated crime organizations. And they know what they're doing. They know what our weaknesses are. They exploit those weaknesses. And they're more than happy to just kind of exist in the shadows and, yeah, we'll let law enforcement go after the big narcotics deals and shootings and robberies as long as we just kind of keep everybody quiet, we'll be fine.
So you don't see a whole lot of individuals that are participating in this at a law. They certainly are, but there's just so much else that they have to deal with. And uniquely, our agency happens to view human trafficking as one of our primary missions. And that's really unique. What I hope is that throughout the country, there will be more law enforcement agencies that will view this as a huge crime. Because the problem with the cartels, as I said, they're like a parasite, right? They're invisible. And yet they're infecting our country.
And crime doesn't just stop at the door of the cantina. Crime spreads. And so the more illegal activity that we allow in our country or happens, the worse that it spreads. It becomes a contagion. So look, I mean, it's not politically... I don't know if correct is the word, but... you know, Mexico is in a difficult spot. And you've seen what's happened when the cartels have finally taken over a country, which they basically are holding the politicians hostage, police department, and the military.
So if we don't do something to go after where the real source of the problem is, and that's organized criminals that are making billions of dollars, this is just going to get worse. And then it's going to start bleeding into other areas. Once people realize the profitability of trafficking, the profitability of sexual slavery, and then it's going to spread.
You know, back when we first did the study, 45% of the human trafficking victims were us citizens. Because as I said, the customers want all shapes and sizes. They want all types and races and-
Eric Huffman: Ages and all.
Kevin Lilly: Ages, hair color, what have you. And so they know this. It's a whole different episode to talk about the domestic human trafficking side, which is still a major problem.
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Kevin Lilly: Different techniques, more grooming, longer term, sometimes kidnapping.
Eric Huffman: As a Christian, a man of faith, aside from the semantics of it and the logistics of the crimes being committed, what has this shown you about the human condition and about evil?
Kevin Lilly: Well, there's two sides to it, the good and the bad. The evil is just indescribable. It's real. It exists. It's demonic. The ability to compartmentalize your emotions and someone living in Mexico, who's a billionaire in a beautiful home, who views this as just another business and not at all experienced the human emotion of it. They are slave owners. To see that is, it's sort of hard to fathom. Unless you see it with your own eyes, you almost can't believe it's happening, that this depravity is going on in our country, in our city where we live, right? 10 minutes away from this church and maybe 15.
But on the other side, I mean, it brings tears to my eyes when I think about... and I'm so grateful. And everybody watching this, when I see a law enforcement officer, when I see the police at our church, I thank them for their service. People thank me for my service because my military service. I think law enforcement officers for their service. I always kind of thank you for your service guys. Thank you for being here. We so much appreciate you.
I think people should embrace law enforcement in this country because they are the ones on the front line.
Eric Huffman: Every day.
Kevin Lilly: Every day. As a child of a police officer, whose daddy went to work every day carrying a gun and you never knew what was going to happen that day, you know, I recognize the, the, the great sacrifice of law enforcement families: the children, the spouses, the husbands, the wives.
You know, we should as a nation embrace this. The cops aren't the bad guys.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: Sure. Are there bad cops? There's bad everyone.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: Right? Everywhere there's going to be a problem at some, but you can't take a broad brush to them. For me to sit there and interview and spend time with these men who have done such incredibly brave things is absolutely will bring a tear to your eye.
Eric Huffman: You used a word... we'll wrap up. I know we got to get going. But you used a word to describe the evil you saw and you used the word demonic. Why'd you choose that word?
Kevin Lilly: Boy, we'd have to go into a Bible study, but I think that evil is personified through many different forms. But I think for anyone to participate in these types of crimes, they can't be of the right mind. These are not normal actions.
Eric Huffman: You're saying there's like a spiritual possession or influence.
Kevin Lilly: Of course, without question.
Eric Huffman: And you're saying that based on what you saw with your own eyes.
Kevin Lilly: Do you think there was demonic presence in Nazi Germany?
Eric Huffman: Of course.
Kevin Lilly: This is basically no different. They are targeting individuals based upon socioeconomic class, based upon their ability to use them, and effectively using them until they're no longer valuable. And if they have to exterminate them, they exterminate them. They treat them as less than human. That to me is a demonic sort of construct.
Eric Huffman: Sure. Yeah. So what do you say to people...? Most of our viewers probably are Christians or some Christian adjacent. What do you say to people that are of a mind to believe in the God who is love and light and fighting these forces of evil, what do you say to them about this particular problem, and what can be done?
Kevin Lilly: Power of prayer. Look, it's a fallen world. Satan is the prince of the earth, right? This is not going to just go away. But we can do what we can to make sure that we provide a hedge of protection around our law enforcement officers, a hedge of protection around our girls, a hedge of protection around the potential victims. For governments to recognize this problem.
I mean, I have my own theory about how we should deal with cartel members, but I do believe they are terrorists without question. They're enemies of the state and they should be treated as such.
Eric Huffman: Sure.
Kevin Lilly: And the idea that they are in plain sight in Mexico, everyone knows who they are and we don't do anything about it. And they act with impunity and they completely sort of ignore us. I think that's certainly problematic.
Eric Huffman: Well, what I want to hear you saying, what I want people to hear you saying is that it feels to the average Joe, like there's nothing we can do about these things, about evil and the way it manifests in the world. And you're saying the opposite is true. Like if you wake up and you intentionally go to war in prayer, that's a great first step toward doing something efficacious and meaningful in the face of these evil sins that we see manifest.
Kevin Lilly: So I said one, which we don't probably have time to talk about the incident where one of my agents basically stopped a mass shooter at Lakewood Church.
Eric Huffman: That was a Super Bowl Sunday, I think.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah, it was in February.
Eric Huffman: Yeah.
Kevin Lilly: I was really sort of angry at that time because of all the defunding police movements. And I said that if your child... this is my quote. "If your child came into you this afternoon and said, mom, dad, I want to be a cop," I said, "You should take that statement and treat it with reverence and respect because these are individuals that are willing to put their lives on the line for us." And I think that everyone should be willing to support and build up our law enforcement agencies, provide them proper funding. We don't need to defund. We need to increase our funding. We need to increase our recruiting and get men and women who want to be in this profession and not demonize them. Which often happens.
Eric Huffman: Because it's honorable.
Kevin Lilly: Well, sure. You have a million police officers. One is a bad apple, does something really bad. And then they decide to just demonize the entire profession.
Eric Huffman: What was the spiritual component of the Lakewood incident?
Kevin Lilly: Well, one of my agents was at the church, an individual, a woman came into the church with a trench coat and an automatic weapon and her child. And she did not fit any profile, right? Women are typically not mass shooters and women with a child are not. She began to open fire before she got into the lobby. One of my agents came and miraculously, per the FBI, basically stared her down and neutralized her. He shot her, he killed her. She was shooting at him with an automatic weapon.
And I remember the FBI agent on duty when I got to the scene said, "I've never seen anything like this." It's like the bullets just didn't hit him.
Eric Huffman: Geez.
Kevin Lilly: And I talked to the agent and I said, "Are you a man of faith?" His name was Adrian. He said, "Yes, I am." And I said, "Mass shootings are a horrible thing." And people say, well, why didn't God intervene when my child was killed? I don't know. But I knew there were 2000 Spanish-speaking worshipers in that sanctuary. And I knew had she gotten into the sanctuary, it would have been probably the worst mass shooting in the history of Texas. And I don't know why he put a hedge of protection. And I think God just said, not today. You know?
Eric Huffman: Just like he did three Fridays ago.
Kevin Lilly: Yeah.
Eric Huffman: Do you feel any different now? Do you feel like you're in the crosshairs of some dangerous dudes? Do you feel afraid?
Kevin Lilly: No. I think that we can't live in fear. That's the other problem. If you perpetually live in fear, nothing happens. I do believe in God's protection. If something sort of unforeseen happens, it happens. I can't sit there and wring my hands and worry about it. Because that's why they're terrorist organizations. They will terrorize you as they've basically done with every official in Mexico and threaten them and threaten their family to the point where they have that ultimate leverage over them. And once that happens and they succeed in terrorizing the populace and they succeed in terrorizing businesses and government, they win.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Once the fear takes over, it's done.
Kevin Lilly: It's done. They cut the head off of a mayor in Mexico a month ago. A mayor. Elected official of a city in Mexico. They cut his head off.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Well, along with everybody that loves you and all these people watching right now, I'll be continuing to pray for your protection and your courage. And I pray that this operation, this work was the beginning of something even bigger and that even more of these places will be brought down and more of these of God's daughters will be set free. I know that won't happen casually or accidentally. You'll have to put more on the line to do that. So just know that there's a bunch of people behind you praying.
Kevin Lilly: Thank you.
Eric Huffman: And supporting you in that. Thank you for all you've done.
Kevin Lilly: Thanks for having me.
Eric Huffman: "Thank you" just doesn't feel like it's enough, bro.
Kevin Lilly: It's plenty. It's not me.
Eric Huffman: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all these stories with us today. I want to thank all of you for watching and please continue to hold Kevin and everybody that's doing the hard work every day to face down the evil that threatens us all. And be sure to thank a law enforcement officer when you see him today. Kevin, thanks for joining us, brother.
Kevin Lilly: Thank you.